November 15, 2009
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The Law = Vomit??? My response to that
Today we went to church with my husband’s family. The pastor spoke about law and grace. He called the law vomit. I have to make a response to that. He used Galatians 2:15-21. Feel free to tell me your thoughts.
Romans 7:12 states that the Torah is holy, and that the Commandments are holy, and just, and good.
Now, what believer in their right mind is going to speak against something just, or teach that something just, and holy, and good has been done away?
Let’s say that you, as an American, believe that the Constitution of the United States is just and good, and some foreigner comes up to you and says the US Constitution has been done away, that you are no longer under the law of the US Constitution, but under grace.
You are going to look at the person like they are lunatic. It would be such an absurd statement to make. But yet people say this about the Torah (about God’s “Law”) continuously, the law of which is the Constitution of YHVH’s Kingdom, and, of the entire universe.
I tell you, in the spiritual realm, you are either under the Torah (under God’s “Law”) or under the Accuser’s (Satans) law. Who’s law do you want to be under?
It is interesting to note that despite all this evidence, that people, even in Shaul’s day, in Romans 3:8 also accused him of teaching people to do evil that good may come; because people to this very day teach this very same doctrine in the Shaul’s anglecized name, Paul.
Teaching people to break, resist, oppose, and to even do away with the Torah (with God’s Law) so that’s God’s good grace may abound to them.
But what was Emissary Shaul’s response to this doctrine and accusation?
He called it slanderous and declared that the condemnation of those who teach such slanderous doctrine is justified.
Shaul states in I Corinthians 6:9,10
6:9 Don’t you know that those who do unrighteousness will not inherit the Kingdom of Yahuweh? Neither they who prostitute themselves, or those who worship idols, or those who commit adultery, or feminized males, or homosexuals,
6:10 nor those who steal or lust after other people’s possessions, nor people who party or are drunkards, or those who speak evil of those who are good, nor those who commit extortion, will inherit the Kingdom of God.
He repeats this same message to the Galatians in Galatians 5:19-21 and to the Ephesians in Ephesians 5:3-7 as well as to the Colossians in Colossians 3:5-10 and to the Thessalonians in I Thessalonians 4:18.
He went to the synagogues every Shabbat (Sabbath), Ma’aseh (Acts) 17:2,18:4 (I find it interesting that the Emissary to the nations went to synagogue every Shabbat to reach the “Gentiles”).
He kept the appointed times of Scripture, Ma’aseh (Acts) 18:21, 20:6,16 as the other Emissaries also did; Ma’aseh (Acts) 2:1.
And as stated earlier, He had Timothy, who was a Greek, circumcised, Ma’aseh (Acts) 16:1-3; and he did this, right after the council in Ma’aseh (Acts) 15, that determined that foreigners coming into the fold through Yeshua need not be circumcised.
He took Nazarite vows on at least two occasions, Ma’aseh (Acts) 18:18; 21:17-23, the vows of which require the sacrifice of an animal; B’midbar (Numbers) chapter 6. And he went up to Jerusalem at least once to offer up sacrifices on behalf of his nation; Ma’aseh (Acts) 24:17,18 in connection with one of these vows (the Ma’aseh (Acts) 21:17-23 vow).
He taught that the “Law” is just and good and holy, Romans 7:12; that the “Law” is spiritual, Romans 7:14; and that it is only the sinful mind that is opposed to it, Romans 8:6,7 not the spiritual mind, Romans 8:5-9.
And in Romans 6:12 that the grace of Yahuweh is not a license to continue violating His Torah; and in Romans 3:8 that those who teach such slanderous doctrine are condemned, and justly so.
Sha’ul is clearly teaching Legalistic keeping of Torah does not save, and that is 100% true, only Messiah saves. He clearly is also not teaching the Torah is done away with (which would contradict Messiah).
The pastor also called those who want to follow the Torah Judaizers.
The problem with the use of the term “Judaizer” …. It’s use is perpetuated by church tradition…. The term is sometimes a mask for anti-Semitism…. No support for the term in the Scripture…. The Scriptures affirm “Jewishness” – Jeremiah 31:31-35, Romans 11…. etc
To Close….
Romans 6
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Comments (11)
I think the whole point is that if you trust in obeying the Law to save you instead of grace through faith in Christ, then the law has become a stumbling block because man simply can not be sinless and obey every law 24/7. Thats why we need grace for when we stumble. The man who thinks he is sinless because he thinks does not break any of God’s laws has only fooled himself because his pride has just given him up. The Law is good, but without grace man is up that creek without a paddle…well, worse than that, in the middle of the ocean with no paddle and a big hole in the boat….and sharks swimming all around.
Yes we are to strive to live by the law but because we want to please the Father and do what is right, not because our salvation depends upon it because it doesn’t. Our striving to keep the law should be evidence we trust in God’s grace through faith in Christ and not depending on the Law to save us. Calling God’s Law vomit was not a good choice of words even though I think I know what he probably meant by it.
Ah, the classic works vs grace conundrum. http://scriptures.lds.org/en/2_ne/25/23#23
@UnworthyofHisgrace - To call the law vomit is indefensible. When Saul disobeyed Father YHWH and had his kingdom taken away from him, Father looked for a man after His own heart to rule His people, and He chose David, son of Jesse. David was a man after God’s own heart.
And Samuel said to Saul, Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee. (1 Samuel 13:13-14)
But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. (1 Samuel 16:7)
And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all thy children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither. And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he. (1 Samuel 16:11-12)
What did David say about Father’s law?
The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalms 19:7-11)
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. (Psalms 40:8)
Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. (Psalms 1:1-2)
No one here has implied or is implying that salvation comes by keeping Father’s law. Of course we know that it’s impossible for us to do that, and we would be preaching a losing proposition if we were to teach that was the case! Our salvation comes by way of the sacrifice Father made on a Roman cross, not by way of the sacrifices done according to the old covenant. But to say that the law is vomit and has no place in the life of the Christian believer is heretical at best.
The law of the Lord is perfect, the law of the Lord is vomit. Blessed is the man whose delight is in the law of the Lord, the law is vomit. Which is it? Is the man who said that a man after God’s own heart? The man should be expelled from the pulpit, and yet this kind of teaching is so prevalent in so many churches that the law truly is regarded as vomit by many who profess belief in Yeshua! They’re all in for a rude awakening…
Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but the ones who do the will of My Father in Heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many works of power? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; “depart from Me, those working lawlessness! (Matthew 7:21-23)
@AOK4WAY - I said I did not like his choice of words, and even said the Law is good. What did I say that you seem to disagree with me? Do you think just keeping God’s Law is what saves us? No man can keep God’s Law, only Christ could. I said the Law is a stumbling block to man because with it, he thinks if he keeps it he will be saved, and if he could keep it he would be, but it is impossible for man to keep the Law. By the same token, if he thinks he can live as he pleases and still be regenerated he has fooled only himself.One who has been saved by grace from his sin cannot go on living in it be he seeks to serve God and he cannot serve God when he lives in sin. Pride like the pharisee’s had is sin too, they kept the law so they said, but Jesus saw it differently, their pride was their biggest sin in thinking they where made righteous by not only keeping the Law but by adding laws to it that were laws divised by men that wanted to rule and have people worship them.Grace through faith in Christ is our only hope.
The idea of calling God’s word “vomit” is revolting to me. That being said, the way I see it is this. If we have received the grace of Christ we are no longer bound by the law (that is, we will not have to pay the penalty of death for violating it). But if we love God, we want to do what pleases Him.
@radicalramblings - I think you have a good handle on it there! The law requires blood for transgression, and purely by grace, it is not our own blood, even though that is what we deserve! Yeshua did not do away with the law, He fulfilled it by dying for our transgressions! That surely doesn’t mean that the law is gone or that we aren’t to observe and obey it! Grace does not equate to lawlessness. That was a great comment
@UnworthyofHisgrace - ”Do you think just keeping God’s Law is what saves us?” That’s part of the problem I have with what you said. You seem unwilling to accept that neither I nor any Christian who upholds the law believes that keeping the law is what saves us. Was it necessary or fair to even ask that question, friend? Doing so was disingenuous in the extreme. Here’s what I said:
“No one here has implied or is implying that salvation comes by keeping Father’s law. Of course we know that it’s impossible for us to do that, and we would be preaching a losing proposition if we were to teach that was the case! Our salvation comes by way of the sacrifice Father made on a Roman cross, not by way of the sacrifices done according to the old covenant.”
Of course, if any man were able to keep God’s law perfectly, neither grace nor salvation would be needed in his case, right?
I disagree with the tone of your comment as well. If a man says that the law is vomit and you say “Calling God’s Law vomit was not a good choice of words even though I think I know what he probably meant by it”, I take exception to that. Not a good choice of words? You know what he meant? IT’S A LIE! IT’S SLANDER AGAINST MY FATHER! Father’s law is good and right and just AND HOLY, and delights the heart of the man who meditates upon it. It opens the eyes to wonders beyond imagination. It is a warning to His children from a loving Father. It is the reason grace is still needed - if the law were done away with, we would not need grace! The law is a gift to us, and if we are Christ’s, it has been written on our hearts and placed in our inward parts. I take great exception to what that man said, and great exception to any attempt to defend his words. That is not necessary to speak of grace and our need of it.
“Our striving to keep the law should be evidence we trust in God’s grace through faith in Christ and not depending on the Law to save us.” You are mistaken. We strive to keep the law because if we are Christ’s, Father has written it on our hearts and placed it in our inward parts. It is not something that we look upon outside of ourselves, it is a part of us by Father’s will. This great gift is also a part of the grace which He has given us.
@AOK4WAY - I don’t understand what you mean by the tone of my comment. If my tone offended you in any way I’m sorry. I didn’t realize I had any certain tone other than just putting some thoughts out there. I didn’t hear the sermon that Kristen is talking about so I can’t judge what he meant by saying what he did. I disagree calling the Law vomit for sure. The Law shows us we are sinful and what not to do and how to live. To me the Law teaches what is right so it is good. Again, I’m sorry if I came across rude or ugly in some way, I did not mean to be or even realize I was.
Kristen,
They took the name “Baptist” off of my church and they started to villify hardliners as “joybusters” and they make fun of people of faith while making church to be anything you want. I can name a Christian bookstore and apart from the academic Christian books for college, they stopped selling books on evangelism.
They hardly write sermons anymore. If I did this in college, I would be called a plagiarist but it is happening in Churches:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHdjC9zyfHI
Churches have to pay pastors a package and it is cheaper for them to pay for a tailored fit lesson plan than to pay for a pastor. The reason they villify us is because they can’t make money or merchandise of us (2 Peter 2:3). That means less pastors are going to go to college because over 5,000 churches are following one of those models and the churches aren’t going to pay them to be educated. Pastors will just teach the thoughts of Rick Warren or Bill Hybels by not loving God with all their mind. Do we know if our pastors are trained anymore?
And if you look at his board of elders, they have women elders. And the church is accepting “outsourced” theology from people they’ve never voted for, the church is accepting theology from people they’ve never met or lived the truth in front of them, etc. In Kindergarten they put me in a sandbox and told me to play with someone. It takes me more than ten minutes to make a friend and yet churches are accepting material from people who never demonstrated their life to us. They accept novel stories as if they were true having never verified them.
***QUOTE***
A “who’s who” of evangelical Christian leaders, including Rick Warren, Robert Schuller, Brian McLaren, Richard Cizik and Bill Hybels, have signed a letter to the Muslim community entitled “Loving God And Neighbor Together” that openly equates Allah with the Christian God. This letter was in response to an open letter from 138 prominent Islamic leaders entitled “A Common Word between Us and You” which stressed that the “unity of God” is “thus the common ground between Islam and Christianity.”
Both of these letters again and again talk of “God” as if both Christians and Muslims recognize and worship the exact same being. ***EndQUOTE***
http://thefinalhour.blogspot.com/2009/09/evangelical-whos-who-sign-letter.html
http://www.yale.edu/faith/acw/acw.htm
http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/04/4-purpose-resisters.htm
Anyway, no one listens but I keep chipping away and writing more each day.
2 Timothy 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
To call God’s word “vomit” is to be a boaster, proud, a blasphemer, unthankful and unholy.
What can I say?
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Chuck
@UnworthyofHisgrace - Yeshua’s peace be with you, friend. I’m also sorry, and I beg your forgiveness for the tone of my own comments. My reaction was an emotional one, but it was not intended to be directed at you, it was a reaction to what the pastor Kristen is talking about said. As our Father promised through the prophet Jeremiah:
Behold, the days come, saith YHWH, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith YHWH: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith YHWH, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHWH: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith YHWH: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith YHWH, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; YHWH of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith YHWH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (Jeremiah 31:31-36)
All praise and honor and thanksgiving be to my glorious, merciful Father YHWH, may His name be exalted in all the earth! He has done this for me, brought me into this new covenant, and when His holy and just law is attacked, it hits me right in the heart, and my first reaction is an emotional one. It grieves me, and it hurts me, it makes me angry, and it breaks my heart for all the people in that church who look to that man for guidance and instruction. There were people who went home from that church believing that the law is vomit, and they will spread that unholy teaching as a result.
I underlined a few things in that passage of scripture that are really important for us to understand as His people. Although this passage occurs during the time that the old covenant was still in force, it speaks of the time when the new covenant would have been instituted. Father says that the law will no longer be something that we view as a legal framework for moral guidance, but something that is a matter of the heart for us, and that He will make it a part of us, of who we are. That must be why I react so strongly and so emotionally to the kind of blasphemy that Kristen described coming out of that pulpit. Also noteworthy is the fact that Father says that if His law ever departs from before Him, the nation of Israel will cease to be a nation before Him forever. We all know that this hasn’t happened, so Father’s law is just as valid today as it ever was.
I think that what has happened is a confusion regarding what Father’s law actually is as opposed to the legalistic framework that grew up around it, as well as confusion over the several covenants Father instituted between Him and His people over the centuries. I wrote an essay about it a while back here , I’d be pleased if you’d visit and give it a read.
Again friend, please forgive me if my tone was not loving. Yeshua’s peace be with you
@AOK4WAY - Not a problem at all. I guess what I am hoping this pastor meant to imply was not that the Law itself is vomit but that it causes the sin to be vomited out, just like when we get sick and the anti bodies in our bodies cause us to vomit trying to cleanse our body of the sickness that has invaded. God’s Law causes the sin to be vomited(shown). Don’t know if that explains my thoughts better or not. If the pastor said the law was vomit itself then yes, he needs to study a little more.I don’t have time to read your essay at the moment, I need to get to work. I really don’t read a whole lot on Xanga anymore, I just don’t have time. I’m sorry if I caused you any grief by anything I said too. God’s peace to you too.
~Grampy~