When someone dies what happens to them? Are they with Yeshua (Jesus)? I am sure you have heard plenty of people say oh they are with "Jesus" or "They are in a better place." Are they? Where does the bible say they are?
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not Adonai, neither any that go down into silence.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, Adonai said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Job 7:9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
Job 7:10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave?
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers;
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee:
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
There is not any scripture that says we go straight to heaven or hell.
What are your thoughts on the issue?
Comments (41)
Well, 2 Cor 5 says
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
and no, that doesn't specifically say that we are immediately with him when we die, but it's often inferred from that. The verses you have quoted are mostly from the OT, and those seem to speak of sleeping in the grave or a state of spirit unconsciousness, but I think there's a good case to be made that that changed at the time that Christ ascended to heaven.
And I have to say too that since it's not specifically spelled out in scripture, we probably don't need to know.
@homefire - Why would it matter if it is the Tanakh ("old testament") or the New Testament? God says "I am God I change not"
Why would it change in the New Testament?
(I wish more people would give their thoughts on this)
There is not any scripture that says we go straight to heaven or hell.
But that is so contrary to what was beat into our brains in Sunday school as children, that most of us just really can't deal with the reality. So we'll say that anyone who points this out is wrong, or heretical, or mislead, or all of the above.
Of course, the same folks who will shout from the rooftops how wrong you are, think nothing of writing "RIP - Rest In Peace" on the tombstones of loved ones. Never giving a second thought to what it means.
It seems that it is only in the last hundred years or so, that we got this crazy idea, that people go straight to heaven or hell instead of ... resting in peace... until Christ returns.
I'm not sure. If we "rest in peace" until Christ's return, then I'd imagine that from our perspective, it will be instantaneous.
Just as long as I get to Heaven, I don't care how long it takes.
The fact that it all seems to exist outside of time anyway might complicate things.
@radicalramblings - Thank you for the wonderful comment. I do think you have a great point...about What is trained into people's brains growing up and going to Sunday School.
@The_James_Blog - I agree that from our perspective it may seem instantaneous. And yes the whole outside time thing does complicate it a bit :)
@homefire - But, what of Jesus resurrecting Lazarus, who SLEPT in death? That's about as new-testament as it gets. Surely, if the dead went directly to heaven or hell, Jesus would have been said to call Lazarus back from heaven/hell, rather than being said to awaken him.
@Kristenmomof3 - "Why would it matter if it is the Tanakh ("old testament") or the New Testament? God says "I am God I change not" "(I wish more people would give their thoughts on this)" AMEN!
* The Lord is opening my eyes to this very issue of following law versus living by grace; God wrote His law (word) upon our hearts, AND Jesus is the fullness (Glory) of God, and the law is a part of God, so the Law is also a part of Jesus, and we who believe and have been born of His Spirit (Born Again) have His spirit living within us, so we no longer have to "follow" the written law, because that law is now written upon our hearts in the form of the Spirit of the One True Living God, and it is He who works within us to cause us to adhere to the Laws of God in love and obedience. Grace was given as a gift to cover those Laws that we inadvertently break in our weakness.
So as we live by grace, keeping our hearts turned toward God, and all that is of God, because of what He has done for us; we, in love and in obedience, live pleasing unto Him, and are continually blessed and made worthy to enter into His presence in the Holy of Holies.
* I believe that once our physical body dies (the first death), it is dead. I don't know if our spirit being sleeps with the physical body of rotting flesh or not. I believe our spirit being sleeps in the "presence" of the Father, but will arise from the "grave" (of unconciousness) when Jesus the Messiah calls that spirit forth; those who have been pleasing to God will rise to life, and those who have not been pleasing to God will rise and be condemned to eternal death (the second and final death).
* Gods word is Gods Word. It, like God, is the same yesterday, today and forever. Each Covenant was a successive covenant made between God and man. Each Covenant built upon the other. Each successive Covenant was combined with the former Covenant in order to continue the promises made by God with His chosen. Each Covenant was unique in itself, but joined together with the previous covenants made whole the promises of God. For me to qualify for the promises that God made to Abraham, I must also be included in the Covenant that God made with Abraham, and for me to be included in that promise, that promise either had to be written into the new covenant, or both new and old Covenants made a part of one another.
- A blood Covenant is rendered void only when one of the "signers" dies. The Blood of Jesus was given for the establishment of the New covenant, but did it also serve to void that previous Covenant? Or did it do away with those things that were not established by God as everlasting; I.e., Man established "Traditional" feasts and festivals, Animal sacrafice, rending of clothes, circumcision of the flesh, etcetera?
* As the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one being, they are also seperate in nature having different positions. Much as a mother, wife, sister, friend, confidant, employee; though they are the same person, the different positions call for a different nature of that person to be made manifest at different times.
This is what I believe to be true. However, my Lord is faithful and true, and reveals His truth to me as I continually walk in His ways, abiding in the Spirit. As I seek His truth, His spirit continues to open my eyes of understanding. Oh, that all of those who claim His name would do the same; then perhaps we, the Body of christ, would truly be of one accord.
@radicalramblings - Good point, though that would've been kinda funny. I would've imagined Jesus would get a "But I don't wanna!!!" if he were in heaven already.
"What?? You brought me back HERE?!"
@The_James_Blog - ROTFL yeah I hadn't thought it through that far but you're right, that would have been a very different story
But on that note... how can heaven, be heaven, if we are there and aware of the pain of our loved ones who are still here? This is one of the reasons I believe that we sleep until the return of Christ when all are resurrected to eternal life, all at the same time, so that we are not there missing our loved ones and seeing them suffer here.
The Bible teaches us in the II Corinthians 5:8 passage that if we are "absent from the body" then we will be present with the Lord. So a person who is a believer will be in the presence of God.
As I look at the parable of Lazarus, it appears obvious that there was a confusion even with the disciples between the words for sleep and death. It appears that the two concepts could be confused even in their day. So sleep in the day of Jesus can be confused with death or sleep. That is obvious from the text.
I would agree with @homefire - in that I believe that the state of people under the law is different than the state of people under grace. I think that concept can be overplayed but there looks to be teachings in the New Testament that indicates a direct relationship between dying and immediate presence with God for the believer. That does not mean that God has changed. I have a son who just turned 16. When he was 15, I told him he couldn't date. When he became 16, I told him he could date but he had provisions. I needed to meet the girl and I would make a decision on whether they could date. Did I change? No. It is a part of my unfolding plan as a parent to make sure my son has relationships that are pure. God did not change from the Old Testament time to the New Testament time but we see that certain concepts applied to people in the Old Testament era that don't apply to the New Testament era.
So I think it is reasonable to believe that during the Old Testament era that God was actually vague to the people about what happened. Death was simply described as being buried or even sleep but it was a language the people understood. But it is interesting to note with the Lazarus parable that the people were still under law. So everything we understand about the Lazarus parable has to be understood to a group of people that were under law because Jesus had not died for their sins yet. Lazarus was clearly with Abraham. The other man was clearly in some state of punishment. It appears that the Bible teaches there will be a new heaven and a new earth. It looks like the new heaven will somehow combined with the new earth and will be like a return to the garden of Eden. It will be ruled by Jesus. So currently all the Christians are in some state of limbo but still in the presence of God. It is tough from scripture to characterize that state of limbo.
We can also understand from the Lazarus parable that the punishment for unbelief is already happening and the people are fully aware of it. They are in pain and suffering. But the Bible also indicates there is another state of hell that Satan will ultimately be thrown into. So it appears that there is a separate hell also.
To summarize, I think it is difficult to say what state the believers are actually in right now. Some of them must be at least awake during certain timeframes because we see that in scripture. So my best bet is that they are constantly awake but are still waiting for the final destination. But I would not rule out a sleeping state.
I believe that your soul is at peace when you die. Some move on to be reincarnated and some stay behind on earth with unfinished business. I don't really believe in heaven or hell.
I've always been taught that you need a good relationship with God to go to heaven--which makes sense to me. However, it saddens me to think that people who don't know God but are kind people may not be in heaven---so I don't know if God will judge their deeds upon their death and I know that the Bible says you can't get to heaven by good deeds alone. It really complicates things and sometimes once you think you understand the idea of heaven and hell, you are challenged (like all the ideas brought up in your post and in the comments) and wonder what really is true and what is not and will we ever know the truth before we die.
This was so interesting. It sounds a lot like what we believe:
when we die, we get buried (hopefully) and we believe that in the grave, as soon as the last person at the funeral walks 40 steps away, we get questioned in the grave: "who is your Lord?" "what is your Book?" and "what is your religion?" and those who, even if they know the answers in this life, didn't live following their true faith, will laugh and say "I do not know!" out of ignorance. Those who lived following their faith will answer, and their graves will be opened wide and feel like a "glimpse", if you like, of their home in Heaven. The others' graves will close up on them and feel hot and uncomfortable, like a glimpse of Hell.
Then the trumpet is sounded, like in your post, and we rise (some believe bodies, some believe only souls) and Day of Judgement begins. :) Aaaand that's a long one in itself. I have a whole book on Life after Death and it goes through all the stages. It is fascinating, honestly. I wanted to do posts based on it but it was just too much. Plus, it's in Arabic so it takes me longer to read and understand it. But hey, maybe one day.
@OhItWontBeForever - if you ever do the post let me know. I would be interested to read it. :)
HI Kristen - this is something I feel very strongly about. In my caregroup last year, we studied the book "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn and learned alot about it, including, what I believe is, the Scriptural belief that if you've trusted Jesus, you go to be with Him immediately after death - not bodily, but in your soul. I acknowledge that the Scriptures you're quoting are difficult to interpret. As a Reformed believer, I believe in the "interpret the Bible by the Bible" way of exegesis - however, I'm no theologian, and learning to understand the Bible and it's myriad of teachings from the OT through the NT can be difficult. Heck, even the apostle Peter said that some things Paul said were difficult to understand! So, I "rely" on the writings of studied, learned theologians. In that respect, let me share with you a part of the book "Questions and Answers" by Dr RC Sproul. The question (on page 202) is "When a person dies, where does his or her spirit and body go until the Second Coming?" The answer:
Throughout its history, the church has struggled with the concept of what is called the "intermediate state" - our position between the time we die and teh time Christ consummates his kingdom and fulfills the promises that we confess in the Apostles Creed...............The most common view has been that, at death, the soul immediately goes to be with God and there is a continuity of personal existence. There is no interruption of life at the end of this life, but we continue to be alive in our personal souls upon death. There are those who have been influenced by a cultic view called psychopannychia, more famously known as soul sleep. The idea is that at death the soul goes into a state of suspended animation. It remains in slumber, in an unconscious state, until it is awakened at the time of the great resurrection. The soul is still alive, but it is unconscious, so that there is no consciousness of the passing of time. I think this conclusion is drawn improperly from the euphemistic way in which the NT speaks about people in death being asleep. The common Jewish expression that they are "asleep" means they are enjoying the reposed, peaceful tranquility of those who have passed beyond the struggles of this world and into the presence of God. But the overall teaching of Scripture, even in the OT, where the bosom of Abraham was seen as the place of afterlife, there is this persistent notion of continuity. Paul put it this way: To live in this world is good; the greatest thing that can ever happen is to be participating in the final resurrection. But the intermediate state is even better. Paul said that he was caught between two things. On the one hand, his desire was to depart and be with Christ, which is far better, and on the other hand, he had a desire to remain alive and continue his ministry on earth. But the apostle's judgment that the passing beyond the veil of death to that intermediate state is far better than this one gives us a clue, along with a host of other passages. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise" The image of Dives and Lazarus in the NT (Luke 16:19-31) indicates to me that there is a continuity of life and of consciousness in that intermediate state."
I believe when people die, their soul remain on earth in a different dimension which we can't interact with. When the time comes, apocalypse will happen, only the chosen ones (include those that are already dead) shall raise and be with God. When earth is cleanse once again, the chosen ones will brought back to earth and repopulate.
@nicolevw - In the original text, it did not contain
commas and chapters , as our Bibles are now, the comma in this verse is a fault
of the transcribers. They put the comma in the wrong place. It should read,"
Verily I say unto thee today,shalt thou be with me in paradise. Just moving the
comma on word back.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto
him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch
me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say
unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your
God.
Jesus
Himself did not go to paradise that day, but laid in the sepulcher 3 days.
1. Jesus said to the thief on the cross - "Today though shalt be with me in Paradise."
2. On the mount of transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were alive, talking with Jesus.
3. In Rev. 6:9-10, we see people that were martyrs who are alive and asking God how long it's going to be until there blood is avenged.
4. Jesus tells us that the rich man is in hell and Abraham is also alive.
5. Paul says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Where is Jesus? He's in heaven, sitting at the right hand of the Father. When we die, we are in the presence of Jesus and the Father.
@musterion99 - your number 1 is addressed in the comment above yours.
@musterion99 - what about John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
@Kristenmomof3 - It seems as with many other doctrines, that scriptures can be shown to support both views. So it's a matter of what you choose to believe. As for John 5:28, our souls are not in the graves as I showed with Rev. 6:9-10. Just our bones are in the grave. It seems like when John says 'in the graves', it's symbolic of our deceased, no longer existing bodies, not our souls, and the time when we will receive new glorified bodies. Matt. 10:28 clearly shows that are bodies and souls are distinct.
I'm curious, are you a Jehovah's Witness?
@musterion99 - No I am not a Jehovah's Witness. (LOL...that is the first time anyone has ever asked me that question.)
How can they hear the voice in the grave and come forth if you are saying they are not in the grave? What about all the other verses listed?
@OhItWontBeForever - What's the name of the book?
@The_James_Blog - The Qur'aan, in our beliefs.