Just starting to watch, but one thing… Jesus did not descend into hell. Period.
The apostles creed is not sacred scripture and as such is not infallible. Remember that.
@James3_1 - At the moment of Our L-rd’s death His soul descended into that part of hell called otherwise known as Abraham’s Bosom – the place where the souls of the Just who died before Christ were detained: “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so for three days and three nights the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12, 40)
“he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3, 19)
Peter 3:18-19 and 4:6
I am sorry, but I agree… Chirst did not descend into hell. That’s the one part of the Word of Faith movement I disagree with. I do not believe hell even existed before Christ ascended to heaven. Why? Because sheol is not hell, but a sleep the Jews believed in. The Saints were said to raise out of their sleep and preached to others. Christ went into the earth, but not into hell. I do believe he went to Sheol and then overcame death, but not hell.
@Papillon_Mom - question….what about….Luke 16:19-31 KJV There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Plus there are old testament verses that talk about it if you would like
Thoughts?
@Papillon_Mom - Sheol is not sleep according to Jews…Here is what the Jewish encyclopedia has to say about Sheol.
SHEOL It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: “I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol” (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp.
ib.
xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps. lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, “toward the setting of the sun”); hence it is designated as (Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or (Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps. cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled into Sheol before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num. xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described as “opening her mouth” (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (
ib.
xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with “farthest corners” (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V. “uttermost parts of the pit”), one beneath the other (see
Jew. Encyc.
v. 217,
s. v.
Eschatology). Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol. The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27)
Or look up Sheol in Wikki….you will see it is not sleep
I am going to let someone else present this for me, since I lack eloquence on this matter. Courtesy of Wayne Grudem, who wrote “Introduction to Systematic Theology”
(1) ” The origin of the phrase ‘ He descended into hell’ : ( from the Apostle’s creed) A murky background lies behind much of the history of the phrase itself. It’s origins, where they can be found, are far from praiseworthy. The great church historian Philip Schaff has summarized the development of the Apostles’ Creed in an extensive chart, which is reproduced in part on pages 583-585.
This chart ( I can’t reproduce it here, sorry) shows that, unlike the Nicene Creed and the Chalcedonian Definition, the Apostles’ Creed was not written or approved by a single chirch council at one specific time. Rather, it gradually took shape from about A.D. 200- 750.
It is surprising to find that the phrase “he descended into hell” was not found in any of the early versions of the Creed (in the versions used in Rome, in the rest of Italy, and in Africa) until it appeared in one of two versions from Rufinus in A.D. 390. Then it was not included again in any version of the Creed until A.D. 650. Moreover, Rufinus, the only person who inclided it before A.D. 650, did not think that it meant that Christ descended into hell, but understood the phrase simply to mean that Christ was “buried.” In other words, he took it to mean that Christ “descended into the grave.” (The greek form has hades, which can mean just grave, not geenna, “hell, place of punishment.”) We should also note that the phrase only appears in one of the two versions of the Creed that we have from Rufinus: it was not in the Roman form of the Creed that he preserved.
This means, therefore, that until A.D. 650 no version of the Creed included this phrase with the intention of saying that Christ “descended into hell” – the only version to inclide the phrase before A.D. 650 gives it a different meaning. At this point one wonders if the term apostolic can in any sense be applied to this phrase, or if it really has a rightful place in a Creed whose title claims for itself descent from the earliest Apostles of Christ.
This survey of the historical development of the phrase also raises the possibility that when the phrase first began to be more commonly used, it may have been in other versions, (now lost to us) that did not have the expression “and buried.” If so, it probably would have meant to others just what it meant to Rufinus: “descended into the grave.” But later when the phrase was incorporated into different versions of the Creed that already had the phrase “and buried”, some other explanation had to be given to it. This mistaken insertion of the phrase after the words “and buried”- apparently done by someone around A.D. 650 – led to all sorts of attempts to explain “he descended into hell” in some way that did not contradict the rest of scripture.
Some have taken it to mean that Christ suffered the pains of hell while on the cross. Calvin, for example, says that “Christ’s descent into hell” refers to the fact that He not only died a bodily death but that “it was expedient at the same time for Him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease His wrath and satisfy His Just Judgement.”
Similarly the Heidelberg Catechism, Question 44, asks -
Why is it added: He descended into hell?
Answer – That in my greatest temptations I may be assured that Christ, my Lord, by His inexpressible anguish, pains, and terrors which He suffered in His soul on the cross, and before , has redeemed me from the anguish and torment of hell.
But is this a satisfactory explanation of the phrase, “he descended into hell.” ? While it is true that Christ suffered the outpouring of God’s wrath on the cross, this explanation does not really fit the phrase in the Apostles’ Creed - “descended” hardly represents this idea, and the placement of the phrase after “was crucified, dead and buried” makes this an artificial and unconvincing interpretation.
Others have understood it to mean that Christ continued in the “state of death” until His resurrection. The Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 50 says
“Christ’s humiliation after His death consisted in His being buried, and continuing in the state of the dead, and under the power of death till the third day; which hath been otherwise expressed in these words, He descended into hell.
Though it is true that Christ continued in the state of death until the third day, once again it is a strained and unpersuasive explanation…
(He goes on at this point to suggest possible scriptural support for a descent into hell, including those that you mentioned. Because it spans more than two pages, I can’t possibly type it all right now. I will skip to the section titled “A more satisfying (scripturally accurate) explanation) I am going to paraphrase with the biggest objection to His descent into Literal, Eternal tormentful Hell…
“Today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”
“It is finished”
“Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit”
” 1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.”
“Does this verse mean that Christ went to hell and preached the gospel to those who dad died? If so, it would be the only passage in the Bible that taught a “second chance” for salvation after death and would contradict passages such as Luke 16:19-31 and Hebrews 9:27, which clearly seem to deny this possibility. Moreover, the passage does not explicitly say that Christ preached to people after they had died, and could rather mean that the gospel in general was preached (this verse does not even say that Christ preached) to people who are now dead, but that it was preached to them while they were still alive on earth.
As long as you aren’t believing that Christ suffered in the same Hell that is the eternal punishment for those who perish without Him, as long as you confess that the passage in the Creed is actually refering to the grave (as the passage regarding Abraham’s bosom is) then we agree. However, if you are one that believes that Christ either suffered in Hell, or was sent there to pay a ransom to satan on our behalf, we have problems. Firstly, Satan is not the one to whom the debt was owed. It was the Father. Second, if He went to Hell to pay our debt, we have to remember that those who die without Christ are ETERNALLY sent to Hell. THAT ETERNALITY is the punishment, and as Christ is no longer in Hell, (Never was there) He hasn’t actually paid our debt yet.
@James3_1 - would you be ok if it was rephrased decended into Sheol?
And actually you aren’t thrown into hell if you die without the L-rd if you want to be totally accurate you are thrown into “the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:10-14 KJV (10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
@Kristenmomof3 - Beautiful, but I prefer Rich Mullins’ “Creed,” and certainly the cover the Third Day.
@James3_1 - I believe we have a great misunderstanding of the words that have been translated hell in English. Acts 2 gives us a perfect example.
In Acts 2, Peter quotes David from Psalm 16, that God had not abandoned his soul to hell. Peter explains that David couldn’t been talking about himself and was prophesying of Jesus.
In the Greek the word is hades. The King James renders that hell. Hades is death, the grave. Jesus did die… and we are told he went to preach to the captives spirits. (I Pet 3.) This is a strange verse… and one commentary I read was that he went to preach victory over the fallen angels… which would denote Jesus was in hell, but to claim the keys of death and the grave. This is my personal conjecture.
There is hell fire which is Gehenna. Click on the link and scroll down to see where Gehenna has been translated hell. There, Jesus did not go. That is the lake of fire…. where even hades will be thrown.(Rev. 20:14).
@Kristenmomof3 - I can’t get mad at such a sweet little girl! I am surprised you can type and speak so well, you must only be 5 or 6. Lol. (profile pic)
I am not mad really. I am just insistent that this heretical belief is not taught anymore. It’s blasphemy, and it undermines the cross and what occured there. I used to believe it though. I am no better or worse. I am simply saying, it is wrong.
Sheol, well that’s better. I would be most pleased if it remained “crucified, died, buried, and rose again,” since that’s what happened.
And as for “lake of fire” when we today talk of hell, the second death is what people think of. Such is the nature of semantics. My point of contention is if you are using Hell as those who misunderstand this phrase in the Creed do, which is to mean “place of punishment.”
It refers to the grave.
It’s been said, by whom I forget, that anything apart from God is Hell. By that reasoning, Christ was in Hell while on the cross He cried “Eli, Eli, Lama Sabach Thani”
He did not descend to the place that Satan is. He did not suffer under the hand of Satan. He paid for our sins by His Father placing our sins upon Him, turning His back on His Son, suffering the fullness of God the Father’s Just wrath. That’s it.
( I still love you, you hairy-tic you. )
@roamingchile - “There is hell fire which is Gehenna. Click on the link and scroll down to see where Gehenna has been translated hell. There, Jesus did not go. That is the lake of fire…. where even hades will be thrown.(Rev. 20:14).”
My issue precisely. Thank you. I couldn’t agree more, and that is what I am clarifying, or trying to anyway.
@Kristenmomof3 - Mad at you?? Seriously? Of course not, silly!!!!!
Yeah, I think Doug is right on this one. Sheol and hell are two completely different places. Remember, hell wasn’t taught at all until Christ began to teach about it. And it was always in a future tense. )
Hannegraff talks about this quite a bit. The idea that Christ descended into hell, itself, and “overcame satan” is a heresy that isn’t supported by Scripture.
But of course I love you and am not mad at you at all!!! Love you. )
I would like to point out though that Satan is not in Hell right now…He is roaming the earth.
I agree there!!!
@Papillon_Mom - turns out James 3_1 and I basically agree…we were just arguing semantics LOL
@Papillon_Mom - yeah…I don’t agree with the “hell overcoming satan idea either” …I was taught this creed for a long time and in school we were taught that the translation of Hell in English in the creed meant Sheol…So really it is a semantics thing and not having enough english words LOL
@Kristenmomof3 - oops, the “mad at you” part was to Jen. Sorry, I misunderstood, and I immediately retract my joke about being mad at a six year old. lol
@Kristenmomof3 - I know I said I was going to bed, but after a slight break, my curiousity as to what was going on here overwhelmed me. Glad you got the hairy-tic thing, and took it how it was intended. Humor is so great, but so risky too sometimes.
Turns out we do agree. But even though finding that out is great, I think it’s better that this conversation was had in case anyone else drops by who didn’t agree. Hopefully this will help disciple them.
Glad to see I don’t have to burn you at the stake hehehehe….
@Papillon_Mom - You realize I am going to have to print this out and hang it on my wall right? I mean… you actually said that I was right! That’s a HUGE milestone! lol.
goodnight for real this time. God’s grace upon your life, God’s mercy evident in your travels through it!
@James3_1 - Shalom! You did a superb job! You just scared me with the listless “systematic theology” copy and paste.
@James3_1 - I think you and roamingchile are on the same wavelength all in all. RE: “It’s been said, by whom I forget, that anything apart from God is Hell. By that reasoning, Christ was in Hell while on the cross He cried “Eli, Eli, Lama Sabach Thani” — James3_1, I am so glad you are passionate to stop this goishe mess of true blasphemy! Yep I used the Yiddish word for “Heathen-ish” and may it not be created as a seperate group in Xanga!! LOL
The other terrible lie is that Y’shua was separated from His Father when He pronounced these words. Oy Vei!! (literally “my enemy”) I say that because the enemy wants us to believe really strange doctrines that His being accursed was so terrible that His Father separated away from the One it says the “fullness of Elohim dwelled in” (Collosians 2:9)?? The L-RD is our Salvation as it is written, “Behold, El (G-d) [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the L-RD YHVH/YHWH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation [ לִישׁוּעָה which is literally "Y'shuah/salvation for me"]. (Isaiah 12:2)” Sin is not some kryptonite which our Almighty can not endure. It dissolves in His Presence. He was/is able to handle the ransom of our souls. For by His blood do we find our remission of sins, nu? (right?) The Father was pleased when His wrath came upon His Son as it is written in Isaiah 53 as this was done at the foundation of our world (see 1 Peter 1:3-19).
So why was Y’shua quoting the very beginning of Psalm 22? He was getting his audience to a key portion of the Psalms which protrayed perfectly what was going on right then. They did not have chapter and verse then and would refer to sections of Scripture by quoting the beginning of it. Check out the prophetic* “crucifixion Psalm” next time you are there. Here’s an article about how some recent findings in the Dead Sea Scrolls make this Psalm even more exciting. Here’s another article on Psalm 22:16. Kristen, maybe you can use this on Psalm 22 when you blog on it then.
*Yea…all Scripture is Spirit breathed and therefore prophetic as it is written in Rev. 19.10 “for the testimony of Y’shua is the spirit of prophecy” and we know it is truly all about Him.
@James3_1 - I wanted to add this because i talked to Kristen about it this morning, and i hope it will add to the discussion. Remember on the cross, what Jesus said to the thief:
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Was he lying here? Of course not! So Jesus could not have gone to hell if He was going to paradise that very day.
And here I thought Kristin was just sharing the Apostles Creed in musical style. What a lot of theologican rambling (but, for a good purpose). )
Question: do we have proof in Scripture when “Hell” is coming, or has come, into existence?
interesting discussion. We sing the Apostles Creed every Sunday afternoon. We’re taught to understand through our Catechism that Jesus did not descend into an actual physical hell, but that rather, being forsaken by God, who did turn His face away from His only Son, that THAT was the hell he descended into. A good understanding of the physical place hell that unbelievers go to, is just that – a separation from God and all that is good. When did he actually “descend into hell?” I believe that period of physical darkness when He was on the cross was hell for Jesus who was forsaken by His Father at the time. What exactly happened in the three days He was actually dead isn’t made clear from Scripture entirely, other than the statement “today you will be with me in paradise”. I hope though, that people aren’t saying that the Apostles Creed is blasphemy. It is a tenet of the Christian faith!
@koldodi - Dear friend, that was purely the labor of my love. No copy/paste there. It was all typed by my hand as I read from the source.
@Papillon_Mom - good one. I am bowing out of this now. I have found that Kristen doesn’t think what I feared she did, and so many do. I am thankful that she is being taught by the same gracious Lord that is teaching me. Some of the other comments on here could really get me started, and today – the Lord’s day – I am resting from this labor.
Comments (28)
Just starting to watch, but one thing… Jesus did not descend into hell. Period.
The apostles creed is not sacred scripture and as such is not infallible. Remember that.
@James3_1 - At the moment of Our L-rd’s death His soul descended into that part of hell called otherwise known as Abraham’s Bosom – the place where the souls of the Just who died before Christ were detained: “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so for three days and three nights the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth” (Matt. 12, 40)
“he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet. 3, 19)
Peter 3:18-19 and 4:6
I am sorry, but I agree… Chirst did not descend into hell. That’s the one part of the Word of Faith movement I disagree with. I do not believe hell even existed before Christ ascended to heaven. Why? Because sheol is not hell, but a sleep the Jews believed in. The Saints were said to raise out of their sleep and preached to others. Christ went into the earth, but not into hell. I do believe he went to Sheol and then overcame death, but not hell.
@Papillon_Mom - question….what about….Luke 16:19-31 KJV There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: (20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, (21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. (30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. (31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Plus there are old testament verses that talk about it if you would like
Thoughts?
@Papillon_Mom - Sheol is not sleep according to Jews…Here is what the Jewish encyclopedia has to say about Sheol.
SHEOL
It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be
congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of
Joseph, exclaims: “I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol” (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp.
ib.
xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31). Sheol
is underneath the earth (Isa. vii. 11, lvii. 9; Ezek. xxxi. 14; Ps.
lxxxvi. 13; Ecclus. [Sirach] li. 6; comp. Enoch, xvii. 6, “toward the
setting of the sun”); hence it is designated as (Deut. xxxii. 22; Ps. lxxxvi. 13) or
(Ps. lxxxviii. 7; Lam. iii. 55; Ezek. xxvi. 20, xxxii. 24). It is very
deep (Prov. ix. 18; Isa. lvii. 9); and it marks the point at the
greatest possible distance from heaven (Job xi. 8; Amos ix. 2; Ps.
cxxxix. 8). The dead descend or are made to go down into it; the
revived ascend or are brought and lifted up from it (I Sam. ii. 6; Job
vii. 9; Ps. xxx. 4; Isa. xiv. 11, 15). Sometimes the living are hurled
into Sheol
before they would naturally have been claimed by it (Prov. i. 12; Num.
xvi. 33; Ps. lv. 16, lxiii. 10), in which cases the earth is described
as “opening her mouth” (Num. xvi. 30). Sheol is spoken of as a land (Job x. 21, 22); but ordinarily it is a place with gates (
ib.
xvii. 16, xxxviii. 17; Isa. xxxviii. 10; Ps. ix. 14), and seems to have
been viewed as divided into compartments (Prov. vii. 27), with
“farthest corners” (Isa. xiv. 15; Ezek. xxxii. 23, Hebr.; R. V.
“uttermost parts of the pit”), one beneath the other (see
Jew. Encyc.
v. 217,
s. v.
Eschatology).
Here the dead meet (Ezek. xxxii.; Isa. xiv.; Job xxx. 23) without
distinction of rank or condition—the rich and the poor, the pious and
the wicked, the old and the young, the master and the slave—if the
description in Job iii. refers, as most likely it does, to Sheol.
The dead continue after a fashion their earthly life. Jacob would mourn
there (Gen. xxxvii. 35, xlii. 38); David abides there in peace (I Kings
ii. 6); the warriors have their weapons with them (Ezek. xxxii. 27)
Or look up Sheol in Wikki….you will see it is not sleep
I am going to let someone else present this for me, since I lack eloquence on this matter. Courtesy of Wayne Grudem, who wrote “Introduction to Systematic Theology”
(1) ” The origin of the phrase ‘ He descended into hell’ : ( from the Apostle’s creed) A murky background lies behind much of the history of the phrase itself. It’s origins, where they can be found, are far from praiseworthy. The great church historian Philip Schaff has summarized the development of the Apostles’ Creed in an extensive chart, which is reproduced in part on pages 583-585.
This chart ( I can’t reproduce it here, sorry) shows that, unlike the Nicene Creed and the Chalcedonian Definition, the Apostles’ Creed was not written or approved by a single chirch council at one specific time. Rather, it gradually took shape from about A.D. 200- 750.
It is surprising to find that the phrase “he descended into hell” was not found in any of the early versions of the Creed (in the versions used in Rome, in the rest of Italy, and in Africa) until it appeared in one of two versions from Rufinus in A.D. 390. Then it was not included again in any version of the Creed until A.D. 650. Moreover, Rufinus, the only person who inclided it before A.D. 650, did not think that it meant that Christ descended into hell, but understood the phrase simply to mean that Christ was “buried.” In other words, he took it to mean that Christ “descended into the grave.” (The greek form has hades, which can mean just grave, not geenna, “hell, place of punishment.”) We should also note that the phrase only appears in one of the two versions of the Creed that we have from Rufinus: it was not in the Roman form of the Creed that he preserved.
This means, therefore, that until A.D. 650 no version of the Creed included this phrase with the intention of saying that Christ “descended into hell” – the only version to inclide the phrase before A.D. 650 gives it a different meaning. At this point one wonders if the term apostolic can in any sense be applied to this phrase, or if it really has a rightful place in a Creed whose title claims for itself descent from the earliest Apostles of Christ.
This survey of the historical development of the phrase also raises the possibility that when the phrase first began to be more commonly used, it may have been in other versions, (now lost to us) that did not have the expression “and buried.” If so, it probably would have meant to others just what it meant to Rufinus: “descended into the grave.” But later when the phrase was incorporated into different versions of the Creed that already had the phrase “and buried”, some other explanation had to be given to it. This mistaken insertion of the phrase after the words “and buried”- apparently done by someone around A.D. 650 – led to all sorts of attempts to explain “he descended into hell” in some way that did not contradict the rest of scripture.
Some have taken it to mean that Christ suffered the pains of hell while on the cross. Calvin, for example, says that “Christ’s descent into hell” refers to the fact that He not only died a bodily death but that “it was expedient at the same time for Him to undergo the severity of God’s vengeance, to appease His wrath and satisfy His Just Judgement.”
Similarly the Heidelberg Catechism, Question 44, asks -
Why is it added: He descended into hell?
Answer – That in my greatest temptations I may be assured that Christ, my Lord, by His inexpressible anguish, pains, and terrors which He suffered in His soul on the cross, and before , has redeemed me from the anguish and torment of hell.
But is this a satisfactory explanation of the phrase, “he descended into hell.” ? While it is true that Christ suffered the outpouring of God’s wrath on the cross, this explanation does not really fit the phrase in the Apostles’ Creed - “descended” hardly represents this idea, and the placement of the phrase after “was crucified, dead and buried” makes this an artificial and unconvincing interpretation.
Others have understood it to mean that Christ continued in the “state of death” until His resurrection. The Westminster Larger Catechism, Question 50 says
“Christ’s humiliation after His death consisted in His being buried, and continuing in the state of the dead, and under the power of death till the third day; which hath been otherwise expressed in these words, He descended into hell.
Though it is true that Christ continued in the state of death until the third day, once again it is a strained and unpersuasive explanation…
(He goes on at this point to suggest possible scriptural support for a descent into hell, including those that you mentioned. Because it spans more than two pages, I can’t possibly type it all right now. I will skip to the section titled “A more satisfying (scripturally accurate) explanation) I am going to paraphrase with the biggest objection to His descent into Literal, Eternal tormentful Hell…
“Today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”
“It is finished”
“Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit”
” 1 Peter 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God.”
“Does this verse mean that Christ went to hell and preached the gospel to those who dad died? If so, it would be the only passage in the Bible that taught a “second chance” for salvation after death and would contradict passages such as Luke 16:19-31 and Hebrews 9:27, which clearly seem to deny this possibility. Moreover, the passage does not explicitly say that Christ preached to people after they had died, and could rather mean that the gospel in general was preached (this verse does not even say that Christ preached) to people who are now dead, but that it was preached to them while they were still alive on earth.
As long as you aren’t believing that Christ suffered in the same Hell that is the eternal punishment for those who perish without Him, as long as you confess that the passage in the Creed is actually refering to the grave (as the passage regarding Abraham’s bosom is) then we agree. However, if you are one that believes that Christ either suffered in Hell, or was sent there to pay a ransom to satan on our behalf, we have problems. Firstly, Satan is not the one to whom the debt was owed. It was the Father. Second, if He went to Hell to pay our debt, we have to remember that those who die without Christ are ETERNALLY sent to Hell. THAT ETERNALITY is the punishment, and as Christ is no longer in Hell, (Never was there) He hasn’t actually paid our debt yet.
Hope this helps!
@Papillon_Mom - Please don’t get mad at me
@James3_1 - would you be ok if it was rephrased decended into Sheol?
And actually you aren’t thrown into hell if you die without the L-rd if you want to be totally accurate you are thrown into “the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:10-14 KJV (10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
@Kristenmomof3 - Beautiful, but I prefer Rich Mullins’ “Creed,” and certainly the cover the Third Day.
@James3_1 - I believe we have a great misunderstanding of the words that have been translated hell in English. Acts 2 gives us a perfect example.
In Acts 2, Peter quotes David from Psalm 16, that God had not abandoned his soul to hell. Peter explains that David couldn’t been talking about himself and was prophesying of Jesus.
In the Greek the word is hades. The King James renders that hell. Hades is death, the grave. Jesus did die… and we are told he went to preach to the captives spirits. (I Pet 3.) This is a strange verse… and one commentary I read was that he went to preach victory over the fallen angels… which would denote Jesus was in hell, but to claim the keys of death and the grave. This is my personal conjecture.
There is hell fire which is Gehenna. Click on the link and scroll down to see where Gehenna has been translated hell. There, Jesus did not go. That is the lake of fire…. where even hades will be thrown.(Rev. 20:14).
@Kristenmomof3 - I can’t get mad at such a sweet little girl! I am surprised you can type and speak so well, you must only be 5 or 6. Lol. (profile pic)
I am not mad really. I am just insistent that this heretical belief is not taught anymore. It’s blasphemy, and it undermines the cross and what occured there. I used to believe it though. I am no better or worse. I am simply saying, it is wrong.
Sheol, well that’s better. I would be most pleased if it remained “crucified, died, buried, and rose again,” since that’s what happened.
And as for “lake of fire” when we today talk of hell, the second death is what people think of. Such is the nature of semantics. My point of contention is if you are using Hell as those who misunderstand this phrase in the Creed do, which is to mean “place of punishment.”
It refers to the grave.
It’s been said, by whom I forget, that anything apart from God is Hell. By that reasoning, Christ was in Hell while on the cross He cried “Eli, Eli, Lama Sabach Thani”
He did not descend to the place that Satan is. He did not suffer under the hand of Satan. He paid for our sins by His Father placing our sins upon Him, turning His back on His Son, suffering the fullness of God the Father’s Just wrath. That’s it.
( I still love you, you hairy-tic you.
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@roamingchile - “There is hell fire which is Gehenna. Click on the link and scroll down to see where Gehenna has been translated hell. There, Jesus did not go. That is the lake of fire…. where even hades will be thrown.(Rev. 20:14).”
My issue precisely. Thank you. I couldn’t agree more, and that is what I am clarifying, or trying to anyway.
@Kristenmomof3 - Mad at you?? Seriously? Of course not, silly!!!!!
Yeah, I think Doug is right on this one. Sheol and hell are two completely different places. Remember, hell wasn’t taught at all until Christ began to teach about it. And it was always in a future tense.
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Hannegraff talks about this quite a bit. The idea that Christ descended into hell, itself, and “overcame satan” is a heresy that isn’t supported by Scripture.
But of course I love you and am not mad at you at all!!! Love you.
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@James3_1 - I agree with you.
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@James3_1 - LOL @ Hairy-tic
I think if we do away with semantics you and I basically agree.
I would like to point out though that Satan is not in Hell right now…He is roaming the earth.
@James3_1 - if you agree with her then we agree
@Kristenmomof3 -
I would like to point out though that Satan is not in Hell right now…He is roaming the earth.
I agree there!!!
@Papillon_Mom - turns out James 3_1 and I basically agree…we were just arguing semantics LOL
@Papillon_Mom - yeah…I don’t agree with the “hell overcoming satan idea either” …I was taught this creed for a long time and in school we were taught that the translation of Hell in English in the creed meant Sheol…So really it is a semantics thing and not having enough english words LOL
@Kristenmomof3 - oops, the “mad at you” part was to Jen. Sorry, I misunderstood, and I immediately retract my joke about being mad at a six year old. lol
@Kristenmomof3 - I know I said I was going to bed, but after a slight break, my curiousity as to what was going on here overwhelmed me. Glad you got the hairy-tic thing, and took it how it was intended. Humor is so great, but so risky too sometimes.
Turns out we do agree. But even though finding that out is great, I think it’s better that this conversation was had in case anyone else drops by who didn’t agree. Hopefully this will help disciple them.
Glad to see I don’t have to burn you at the stake hehehehe….
@Papillon_Mom - You realize I am going to have to print this out and hang it on my wall right? I mean… you actually said that I was right! That’s a HUGE milestone! lol.
goodnight for real this time. God’s grace upon your life, God’s mercy evident in your travels through it!
@James3_1 - Shalom! You did a superb job! You just scared me with the listless “systematic theology” copy and paste.
@roamingchile - Amen.
@James3_1 - I think you and roamingchile are on the same wavelength all in all.
RE: “It’s been said, by whom I forget, that anything apart from God is Hell. By that reasoning, Christ was in Hell while on the cross He cried “Eli, Eli, Lama Sabach Thani” — James3_1, I am so glad you are passionate to stop this goishe mess of true blasphemy! Yep I used the Yiddish word for “Heathen-ish” and may it not be created as a seperate group in Xanga!! LOL
The other terrible lie is that Y’shua was separated from His Father when He pronounced these words. Oy Vei!! (literally “my enemy”) I say that because the enemy wants us to believe really strange doctrines that His being accursed was so terrible that His Father separated away from the One it says the “fullness of Elohim dwelled in” (Collosians 2:9)?? The L-RD is our Salvation as it is written, “Behold, El (G-d) [is] my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the L-RD YHVH/YHWH [is] my strength and [my] song; he also is become my salvation [ לִישׁוּעָה which is literally "Y'shuah/salvation for me"]. (Isaiah 12:2)” Sin is not some kryptonite which our Almighty can not endure. It dissolves in His Presence. He was/is able to handle the ransom of our souls. For by His blood do we find our remission of sins, nu? (right?) The Father was pleased when His wrath came upon His Son as it is written in Isaiah 53 as this was done at the foundation of our world (see 1 Peter 1:3-19).
So why was Y’shua quoting the very beginning of Psalm 22? He was getting his audience to a key portion of the Psalms which protrayed perfectly what was going on right then. They did not have chapter and verse then and would refer to sections of Scripture by quoting the beginning of it. Check out the prophetic* “crucifixion Psalm” next time you are there. Here’s an article about how some recent findings in the Dead Sea Scrolls make this Psalm even more exciting. Here’s another article on Psalm 22:16. Kristen, maybe you can use this on Psalm 22 when you blog on it then.
*Yea…all Scripture is Spirit breathed and therefore prophetic as it is written in Rev. 19.10 “for the testimony of Y’shua is the spirit of prophecy” and we know it is truly all about Him.
@James3_1 - I wanted to add this because i talked to Kristen about it this morning, and i hope it will add to the discussion. Remember on the cross, what Jesus said to the thief:
“And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.”
Was he lying here? Of course not! So Jesus could not have gone to hell if He was going to paradise that very day.
And here I thought Kristin was just sharing the Apostles Creed in musical style. What a lot of theologican rambling (but, for a good purpose).
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Question: do we have proof in Scripture when “Hell” is coming, or has come, into existence?
interesting discussion. We sing the Apostles Creed every Sunday afternoon. We’re taught to understand through our Catechism that Jesus did not descend into an actual physical hell, but that rather, being forsaken by God, who did turn His face away from His only Son, that THAT was the hell he descended into. A good understanding of the physical place hell that unbelievers go to, is just that – a separation from God and all that is good. When did he actually “descend into hell?” I believe that period of physical darkness when He was on the cross was hell for Jesus who was forsaken by His Father at the time. What exactly happened in the three days He was actually dead isn’t made clear from Scripture entirely, other than the statement “today you will be with me in paradise”. I hope though, that people aren’t saying that the Apostles Creed is blasphemy. It is a tenet of the Christian faith!
@koldodi - Dear friend, that was purely the labor of my love. No copy/paste there. It was all typed by my hand as I read from the source.
@Papillon_Mom - good one. I am bowing out of this now. I have found that Kristen doesn’t think what I feared she did, and so many do. I am thankful that she is being taught by the same gracious Lord that is teaching me. Some of the other comments on here could really get me started, and today – the Lord’s day – I am resting from this labor.
God bless you!