February 26, 2009

  • Question for you — Original sin

    Do you believe in what is often called “original sin”? (you know what I am talking about …. the idea that babies are already born with original sin….it is the reason many groups baptize babies …. many others believe in it too but don’t baptize babies.) What scripture verses can you give me for or against the idea of “Original Sin”?

    I am studying the idea of original sin right now. Trying to study it and not just believe in something because the Catholic church did and the Protestants didn’t throw it out when they left Catholic.

    Trying to find out if the church in the beginning believe in it or not.

    You know Jews do not believe in Original sin. ( I just wanted to expand on this though……Many Jews do believe in “Yetzer Hara” meaning evil inclination. They believe that we got that after Adam’s disobedience. And believe that during the Messianic age we will no longer have to deal with yetzer hara as part of ourselves.)

    Trying to find out if it is a scriptural belief.

    Anyone have any thoughts????????

Comments (31)

  • I am at work and don’t have time to look up anything myself.  See if this might help.

    http://www.gotquestions.org/original-sin.html

  • Romans 5:12-18 describes to us the need for Christ’s sacrifice on the cross– “Therefore just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned–for before the law was given, sin was in the world. … Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
    But the gift is not like the trespass, For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and…the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! …
    Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (emphasis added)

    This passage has always seemed clear to me that the reason Christ died for all was because all of us needed Him. All of us had sin.
    As far as when we become responsible for our choices, I have no clear Scripture backing for what I hope to be true–what I hope to be true is that God cares for the babies He brings into life but that die before moral choices become reality. I say I “hope” because I’ve never done an in-depth study to determine the actual truth. It seems likely to me that this is true, however, simply because it is God who allows babies to form in the womb. To allow a life to appear only to allow it to be snuffed out before there is moral choice and THEN allow that spirit to suffer eternally seems contradictory of what I know about God’s character.
    But I also don’t want to put my ideas onto God and make Him fit into my box. So I have yet to determine the finer points.

    As for all people having inherited sin from Adam, I think that’s pretty clear. That’s why Christ had to die for the whole world, past present future.
    ~V

  • According to the Christian doctrine, Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. The idea here is that every man is born with sins, or that all humans will sin, and therefore it was necessary that someone as pure as Jesus would be the crucified to nullify these sins. The question is; why does anyone have to die for our sins when God, the All-Merciful, could as easily give us forgiveness if we ask for it? Isn’t God the one who makes the rules? Why does He have to make someone suffer for our sins or for someone else’s sins? Isn’t that unjust of Him? According to the Bible the way to redemption could be obtained without the need for sacrifice. The Bible says:

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    Clearly the soul that sins shall die. Clearly that no one shall bear the iniquity (sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it shall be upon him, and not on Jesus. Finally, the way to repentance and forgiveness is by turning from all sins, doing what is right, and keeping the commandments.

  • I am getting ready to head to work so dont have time to look up references but I can give you my OPINION….for what it is worth.
    I do believe that we are all born in sin…”For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”….but I also believe that there is an “age of accountability”…I do not think that a child who dies before reaching the age of accountability is held accountable for his or her “sins” by a merciful Father.
    Time to head out the door…have a great day!!
    Ruth Ann

  • There are old testament verses aren’t there, that talk about how Christ had to be born not of man, because of sin that came through man?

    How anyone can look at a baby and NOT see original sin is beyond me.(That’s my opinion-not a slam) My 10 month old is struggling with the concept of “No. Don’t touch. No. Don’t play with that.” You can see her ponder the word no, she KNOWS what I mean, because she will hesitate and then she reaches for it anyway. Then there’s her brothers…….they beat the snot out of each other on a regular basis, trying to steal toys, struggle with sharing, coveting, etc.

    I’m far from a bible scholar, but I have a friend who is, and is very knowledgeable on both the Old and New Testament. I’ll ask him for versees to back up original sin.

  • Isn’t “original sin” is this?  DISOBEDIENCE.  Adam and Eve were told not to eat fruits off a certain tree.  Eve chose to disobey by listening to a serpent instead of God.  Adam chose to disobey by listening to Eve instead of God.  They both knew better but they chose to disobey.  Some people may find this very hard to believe.  A wee little newborn a sinner?  No, baby is too young and innocent to experience a sin!  BUT there is a seed of disobedience already part of its soul, born with it.  It just don’t show up until baby begin to communicate.  That seed of disobedience is there, passed on to next generation through DNA. I like to think in terms of DNA.  When God banished Adam and Eve from Garden of Eden, God also changes some things- making it to where we MUST WORK for food to eat.  Thistles, sickness, childbirth pains, and some more were then introduced.  If God can do these changes after creating earth and everything contained, then he can implant a seed of disobedience in DNA to ensure that it is passed on to every generation thereafter.   It is so part of us that it is hard for some of us to separate “original sin” from our own person.

    I said these things based on how I understand the stories from creation unto banishment from Garden of Eden.

    Jews not believe such things?  It is outlined early in first book of Old Testament!

  • @mjh905 - They believe that Adam and Eve sinned but they do not believe that each person is born with “original sin”

  • a good source for that info would come from the Orthodox Christian Church. do you have any orthodox friends?

  • Yes, I believe in original sin. 

  • @Hecalmsthestorm - @Redlegsix - @TheMarriedFreshman - @mjh905 - 
    If you believe in everyone being born with “original sin” then do you believe all babies who die go to hell? Or all little children who die go to hell?

    The bible says that sin can not enter heaven. And that we must repent and accept Yeshua to enter heaven.

  • I believe in original sin, but I don’t believe that babies and little children go to hell when they die. Think about it: they don’t understand the meaning of salvation or redemption and I don’t think God would punish them for that. Think of King David and Bathsheba’s first child that they had together; it was conceived in sin and it died early on but I don’t think it went to hell. And when Jesus was speaking of little children, they were perceived as innocent and guiltless.

    Question: Has anyone else heard of the “age of accountability”? Where a child finally becomes accountable to his/her actions and understands the meaning of salvation?  

  • @Kristenmomof3 - No I do not.  God is fully merciful and full of grace.  While the Bible never definitively addresses this issue it does tell us that Christ’s death covers the penalty of sin.  There is the “age of accountability” no doubt.  Before that age a person is not capable of understanding the reason for Christ’s death and payment of our sins.  God has the capability of applying Christ’s payment to those who are not yet old enough to understand.  And I believe this is what happens.  John McArthur did a sermon on this very subject that I thought covered it very well.  I wish I could explain it like he did.  If I can find it I will send you the download link for it.  All his sermons are free to download.

  • Sin isn’t a substance, just as evil isn’t a substance, and just as there are no “darkness particles”: dark is simply the absence of light. 

    Sin isn’t a disease that’s passed along from mother to child like an STD.  The Greek word for sin is hamartia – missing the target.  I think misdirected love is a good paraphrase.   Sin is separation from God, because of our misdirected loves. 

    When put that way, I believe that children are born “with original sin,” meaning that we are all born lacking the innate connection to God that Adam and Eve originally had.  But, because I am a Wesleyan, I also believe that God has multiple levels of grace upon grace.  God exercises a prevenient grace that covers infants, and it is only this that allows children to grow up and ever seek God, because God draws them, draws us.  By extension, I believe unbaptized infants can still enter into God’s rest.

  • You got me.  I need to have another look at my Bible on that issue.

  • I think there’s two different ideas being discussed and they’re often tied together which is what makes it confusing.  One is the idea that we are all sinners, which the Bible says quite clearly.  The other is the idea that little children who are not yet capable of understanding right from wrong are going to go to hell when they die if they haven’t accepted Christ yet.  And really there’s even a third idea tied to that, of whether salvation is tied to accepting Christ or to baptism.

    The Catholic church tends to wrap it all up into one neat little package – man has original sin so babies must be baptized lest they go to hell if they should die.  Uhm, yeah.  I don’t think so.

    I do believe in original sin.  I do not believe that salvation is tied to baptism.  I believe there is an “age of accountability” for sin, that comes when a person understands right from wrong, and may be judged differently by God for every single person based on what He knows their understanding is.

  • “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine; the soul who sins shall die.

    “But if a man is just and does what is lawful and right; if he has not eaten on the mountains, nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, nor defiled his neighbor’s wife, nor approached a woman during her impurity; if he has not oppressed anyone, but has restored to the debtor his pledge; has robbed no one by violence, but has given his bread to the hungry and covered the naked with clothing; if he has not exacted usury nor taken any increase, but has withdrawn his hand from iniquity and executed true judgment between man and man; if he has walked in My statutes and kept My judgments faithfully – he is just; he shall surely live!” Says the Lord GOD.

    A good person can raise up an evil son. An evil parent can raise up a righteous son. That is the point of Ezekiel 18:4-20. The remainder of the chapter takes it a step further to show that a person is not locked into one way of behaving the rest of his life. A wicked person can change and become a righteous person. A righteous person can change and become a wicked person. In other words, there is no excuse to claim that sin is out of our control. There is no bemoaning that the results of our actions were not our choices.

  • Well, let’s put it this way, if we did not inherit the sin from Adam and Eve then there would have been no reason to block all men from the garden of Eden.  God could have simply waited till Adam and Eve had kids; then brought the kids back into the garden to start again.

  • I do not believe in original sin.  I believe that a child has to be of a certain age to accept Christ into their life/baptism.  I believe a child is a child of God and if something were to happen he would not send him to hell.  When a child is mature enough to understand and chooses to take the path of the Lord then they should be old enough to have known sin so then to baptism.

    With that said in our culture/religion (Orthodox/Apostolic) they do it very early near to birth.  I think that was a traditional thing passed on through generations.  My children were as infants but my oldest wants to be again to accept Christ into his life and a young man.

  • I’ll do a post on it soon. I’m being a little limited in my time on the computer lately, but as a tease I will say this -

    1) Know anyone who hasn’t sinned?
    2) Whether or not original sin is true, no one can not sin except Christ
    3) By default then, if nothing else, original sin is right. 
    4) we are all sinners. Regardless of original sin, or personal sin we are all GOING to sin.
    “In sin my mother conceived me” Psalm 51
    Yes, Original sin is Biblically accurate. I will do a post soon.

  • @James3_1 - looking forward to reading it

  • good friend sent me these scriptures…..

    Ezekiel 18 (whole chapter)
    Jeremiah 31:27-39
    Luke 3:1-22

  • That’s a very good question to ask and I appreciate that you don’t take it as dogma. Someone else cited Ro 5, so I won’t repeat that. The idea expressed there is presented many other places, particularly in the New Testament. The point is that death came about because of sin. If death is not the result of sin, then the atoning death of Jesus Christ is meaningless. This is the very foundation of the gospel and the reason I’m such a hard liner when it comes to Creation.

  • I believe that the idea of original sin is Biblical.  Romans – the book of the Bible that deals fairly exclusively with how salvation is obtained – and also how sinful man actually is says this in chapter 5: 12-14 “Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned – for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is not law.  Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.”      And later in that chapter, verse 19 “For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the man will be made righteous.” 

    The psalmist David confesses in Ps 51 verse 5 “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me”.  

    I have the Reformation Study Bible – ESV in front of me, and let me share a little bit of what RC Sproul writes regarding original sin:

    “Original sin” meaning sin derived from our origin, is not a biblical phrase (it comes from Augustine), but it does bring into focus the reality of sin in our spiritual system.  Original sin does not mean that sin belongs to human nature as such; “God made man upright” (Eccl 7:29), Nor does it mean that the process of reproduction and birth are sinful; the uncleaness associated with sexuality in the Law (Lev 12, 15) was typical and ceremonial, not moral.  Rather, original sin means that sinfulness marks everyone from birth, in the form of a heart inclined toward sin, prior to any actual sins; this inner sinfulness is the root and source of all actual sins; it is transmitted to us from Adam, our first representative before God.  The doctrine of original sin makes the point that we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners, born with a nature enslaved to sin.

    The phrase “total depravity” is commonly used to make explicit the implications of original sin.  It signifies a corruption of our moral and spiritual nature is total in principle although not in degree ………No part of  us is untouched by sin, and no action of ours is as good as it should be.  Consequently, nothing we do is ever meritorious in God’s eyes……………… Total depravity includes total inability, that is, being without power to believe in God or His Word (John 6:44, Rom 8 : 7,8) Paul calls this universal unresponsiveness a form of death; the fallen heart is “dead” (Eph 2:1.5; Col 2:13).”   (end quote)

    Some of the comments here show a remarkable ignorance of what some protestants believe with regards to infant baptism.  There is more to it than just what the Roman Catholics believe about original sin and their (false) understanding of how baptism supposedly saves.   Protestants who hold to infant baptism, do not believe that baptism saves anyone.   It has to do with covenant belief related to the covenant that God established with Abraham and his descendants.  But that’s a whole other topic!!!  Do I believe then that with or without baptism an infant who dies is not saved?  No I believe God’s grace is more bountiful than we can imagine.    And more specifically, that children of believers who die before the age of accountability (which I think is different for every person) whether they are baptized or not, God will save because of the belief of their parents and because of the promises extended to the children of believing parents.     

    PS-  I don’t believe that this is the place to argue infant baptism vs believers baptism, I just wanted to point out that there seems to be a misunderstanding about protestant infant baptism.

  • @YehwehPaladin - EXCELLENT point!!!

  • While I am short on time at the moment, go to Genesis 3:15-16. Research those verses.Read Romans 1- Romans 8.

    The real question is did mankind fall from grace in the garden or just Adam? The bible deals in covenants and covenant heads. Adam is man’s covenant head. Jesus is the second Adam, our covenant head. We are in the New Covenant (since we are in time and space constraints) Jesus did what Adam failed to do. This is way too short of a answer but just gives things to provoke thought and study.

    Study scripture and seek His face. I am sure He will reveal the light of His word to you.   John

  • @Kristenmomof3 - Well, tell you what. I’ll pray about it, read up on it, and get back to you. Like I said, I want the whole “age of accountability” thing to be true, but I have no solid basis for that. It’s just that it doesn’t fit into my idea of God. But my idea of God doesn’t really matter; it’s who He really is that matters, and this gives me a chance to get to know who He really is a bit better. So yeah. I’ll get back to ya.

  • It’s up. It’s very cursory. I couldn’t go too in depth because my mind just isn’t connecting right now. I’ve got a lot going on and I’m just not able to focus on any one thing too long. It’s hard times here. But I hope it helps and I hope that if you have questions I can address them better when you ask them based on what I posted.

  • Just a question. When I came here before I thought that you were Born Again. This question, and the answer you stated about Jews not believing in original sin, make me wonder, are you no longer professing to be Born Again? I just feel like in the weeks(well about 8-10)since I missed coming over due to computer, I feel like I am  in another country(it is so different here).

    Are you converting ? I ask these questions because I know a woman that was seemingly devoted Catholic, convert to Judaism.

    I really am wondering. If I am too nosy please forgive me, I just believed one thing, and now Boom…a whole new You:)
    Jennifer

  • Oops I guess my questions crossed the line. Forgive me.

  • @jennifer - no it’s fine :) … it was a question you were wondering. I just was already in bed a few hours before you ask :)

    The reason I ask the question is not because I am converting to Judaism…. I am just studying everything…Making sure that everything has bible backing it. I do not want to follow something just because this is that “the church” says.

    I want to see it line up with the bible.

    I am a born again Christian who wants to completely follow what Adonai wants me to follow. I don’t want to do something that He doesn’t want because the church teaches something that has no bible support.

    So I look for the Bible background.

  • This ought to clear it up: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/moro/8/ You don’t even need to “believe” in the Book of Mormon. Just read it. Children are innocent. Nothing burns my biscuits more than to attend a funeral of a little unbaptized child, and I have, where the pastor suggests that the child cannot enter heaven. Gimmie a break!

Post a Comment

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *