June 23, 2009

  • Burqas not welcome in France

    I just got done reading this article.

    France is talking about taking away the right of women to wear a Burqa outside the home. This is not a new thing for France who has already taken away the rights to wear a headcovering or Hijab and attend schooling. Now they are trying to take away the rights of women to wear a burqa and niqab when they go out.

    Why are places like France trying to ban women from dressing in a way that they think is modest?
    Why does a person have to remove their Hijab to be able to get an education?

    What are your thoughts on this? Should a government be allowed to tell a woman that she has to go against her religious beliefs or her thoughts on modesty? Does the government have the right to make women remove their burqa when they want to wear it?

Comments (44)

  • I don’t see a problem with the voluntary wearing of any headgear. However, for identifcation purposes removal of the gear would be appropriate as recognition by eyes only is rarely possible. My feeling is that they are doing this because the gear is an instant identifier of a religion that some are uncomfortable with and they want people to ‘meld’. It doesn’t seem right. Diversity should be celebrated and not refused.

  • Telling women they cannot wear a burqa, is as oppressive as telling them they must, IMHO.

  • I can see where it is a problem in schools.  In america kids are banned from wearing any kind of scarf, cap, stocking cap or bandana.  The reason is because they can not be recognized by security cameras because part of their face may be covered.  It’s understandable that they would require this.  I mean, guys should have a right to wear a baseball cap, right?  But in schools it’s better that they don’t and it’s simply nothing more than a security issue.  I’ve gone to school in the French school system before and they are very much more serious about their schooling there, so I could see it being something that is taken even more seriously over there.  

  • @x_Butterflies_and_Hurricanes_x -  We live in America….My daughter is allowed to cover her head in school for religious reasons. There are also a few conservative Mennonites that attend public school as well who are allowed to wear their “caps” (Headcovering)

    So headcoverings and hijabs and veils are allowed to be worn in American schools when they are worn for religious reasons.

  • Haha, I just got done writing an entry about this. I think this is completely absurd. I agree with radicalramblings! 

  • To me, it is clear cultural enchrochment.

    There are legitimate concerns behind the motivation of the legislation, but the policy fails to address the root of the problem while veiling the rights of Muslim wome who choose to wear burqas. I buy the implementation of restrictions where there is an overriding public safety concern, but the general banning of burqas fall clearly out of this category. It is ill concieved social engineering that will accomplish little at the cost of suppressing rights while damaging relations with the Muslim community.

  • @AnamcharaConcepts - i agree.   i do think that for security purposes (such as at airports) part of the burqa may need to be removed (privately and/or with another female witness possibly). but as you stated, i don’t think France is making this an issue because of that at all. there are so many other more pressing issues that France should be focusing on and speaking out about instead.

  • @x_Butterflies_and_Hurricanes_x -  actually, i hadn’t thought about that, but i am remembering an incident with a high school student who wore a turban in the alternative high school. he claimed it was for religious reasons, but it was also a place to hide contraband.

  • While I am sure there are the unscruplous few who decide to wear various religious / modest clothing for reasons other than faith and religion, the majority of people who do so cover out of faith.  It’s unfortunate for France to be so socially progressive that it neglects to protect the rights of individuals to believe their faith and carry out their practices.  I think France has also tried to make Christians not wear cross necklaces and similar jewelry.  I think we can now say that Western Europe is secular and no longer religious.

  • @Kristenmomof3 - I think the issue here is largely one of technological limitations. Currently, visual methods of identification are among the simplest and most cost-effective ways of ID’ing people. I think with time and technological advancements, our issues with the burqas and other headwear will change. 

  • Obviously, wearing such a garment in a public environment brings up several legitimate concerns. The most obvious is that individuals wearing such a garment cannot be identified. Think about it, if a man decided to wear a burqa for the mere purpose of moving about undetected and then decides to commit a crime in the outfit- this would bring problems on many sides.

    In addition to this, it is a fact that many women do not wear these garments because they want to but because they are forced to. As such, the garment in question is a symbol of slavery, oppression, male supremacy over women, etc. To most people, it represents hatred and oppression- not freedom.

  • @Lynnjynh9315 - there are many women who choose to wear it. What about their rights?

    How many women will, if they pass the law, be forced to NEVER leave the house because they can not wear it?

  • @Kristenmomof3 - Sorry, but I can’t help but feel that women who “choose” to wear such clothing have about as much choice as a slave when he’s told to go work fields and he says- in great humility- “yes, master!!”. Such women have been trained in an environment that makes them prisoners in their own minds. Individuals may become comfortable with their shackles- and even long for them as the Israelites did in the desert- but that doesn’t mean they should stay bound in them….

    Sometimes “freedom” takes admitting you were bound to begin with.

  • Kristen, I suppose I agree that people should make their own choices, but my sympathies are not with the burqa wearers. It is a very sad enslavement. I see it more as the government protecting these women from servility and the second-class status the men would put on them. But still, we should respect our weaker bretheren, so if they feel they need it, they should be able to choose.

  • @Lynnjynh9315 - there are many women who choose to dress modest. Just because you don’t understand them doesn’t make their opinion any less valid. @teeraljannah chooses to wear one. And she should have that right. I wear Shalwar Kameez because I want to. And I should have that right. No one should be allowed to tell us that we dress “too modest” and have to change how we dress.

    You think that women are all forced to dress this way. There are many who choose it and they should have that right.

  • @MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy - Many wear it of their own free will. And should be allowed to continue

  • @Kristenmomof3 - I’m sorry, but I can’t get myself to agree with you on this one. I’ve come to respect you for your knowledge of the Biblical language (Hebrew?) and the use of words like “Adonai” which most other Christians don’t know and don’t use.

    However, I’m afraid the only thing further I can contribute to this discussion is an argument I’d much rather avoid. As such, I’m going to remove myself from this blog on terms that are still peaceful and respectful…. Goodbye.

  • @hala292 - wonderful comment. Thank you for voicing your thoughts :)

  • @hala292 - Fair enough. You obviously know more about this topic than I do. As such, I stick to my previous statement: I am removing myself from this discussion to avoid argument.

  • Somehow, I am not surprised.

  • @hala292 - But this is your experience as a Muslima brought up in Western culture; you cannot divine from it that NO Muslima are ever indoctrinated into the teaching that women are subjugated to men and must therefore cover themselves from head to toe, because it is their fault if they cause a brother to lust after them by — gasp — showing an ankle. Your experience doesn’t translate to the experience of all Eastern and Western cultures. Many pockets of Muslim culture in the West still teach their women very Eastern practices and, at the very least, encourage them to see and think of the burqa in terms of keeping women “in their place.” ANY religious practice can be abused in such a way, but ones which discriminate against persons are ones which society should be concerned about. Good for you for thinking for yourself and practicing your religion as you deem is correct for you, but not every woman is afforded that choice. Your religious expression may be another woman’s religious shackle — would you feel differently about the covering if you risked the loss of your life or the abandonment of your family by leaving home without it? Should we consider that the young Russian Muslima who burned to death when their madrasa burned to the ground, who were forbidden from leaving the building that became their tomb simply because their faces were not covered, were not victims of religious terrorism?

    A dear friend of mine, a Christian living in Morocco, had to defend his sister and his family when she was accused of provoking a man to rape her, simply for not having had her head and face covered in a known Muslim part of town — there is no doubt that, around the world, the mandating of head covering does — at least some times — create an oppressive environment for women, and sometimes a violent and deadly one. Again, I’m not saying you are wrong for following your religious convictions — you certainly have the right to them and I will certainly defend that right if ever it is attacked, whether your religion mandates full body covering or nudism. It’s your body, your faith, and your right to express it however you choose. But a society which ignores the injustices of choice revoked is a society which has no right to call itself just.

    As for the question, I would imagine that France, in all their Western wisdom, simply assumes that no woman would voluntarily cover herself head-to-toe, and that therefore they must needs be “liberated” at (metaphorical) gunpoint from their religious burdens — which, as Wendi said, is just as enslaving as the mentality which forces them into such garments. Women should be afforded the choice to cover their bodies, as well as the choice to expose them; such matters are for the individual, not the state. If France truly wants to liberate women, they should create a program for women who feel religiously harassed into wearing the veil, one that operates with full understanding of those women’s religious culture and society, one which would protect them without causing them any legal or social harm, instead of potentially making criminals of women who may be forced by family to wear the veil, whether they wish to or not. Such a program would protect the rights of those women who choose to fully cover their bodies, while at the same time providing a safe haven to those who are forced or socially pressured to cooperate with teachings they do not themselves uphold.

  • @GermanWrench - I agree with you. No one should be forced to cover. I know that in the past, people have forced women to cover, and still do. That is VERY wrong, and in fact against the teachings of Islam. No one should be forced to cover. It should be done self-willingly. 

    Again, I was just trying to address that Sarkozy does not want to listen to the voices of the women who choose to cover themselves. I agree that he wants to give women who are forced to cover the freedom of choice, but that freedom of choice should also be given to women who cover and are being forced to stop covering. 

    If he truly wants to liberate women, he shouldn’t be oppressing people like me by forcing us to remove our face veils. 

  • @hala292 - Ok, I’m game. Please tell me why you wear it.

  • I have sort of mixed feelings about this. Some of our difficulties I think are culturally based. Most westerners like to see a person’s entire face because to them it give the oppertunity to observe and make a judgement as to whether or not that person is telling the truth when their speaking to you. That is my comfort level also and that’s why I think most westerners carry a sense of mistrust of Muslim women who’s faces are covered.

    Now, on the flip side of that – in varying parts of the middle-east – burqas & niquaab have a different meaning. ”Over there” it’s considered rude to stare at someone’s face; especially if your not the same gender. Men in Saudi Arabia don’t publicly look at any woman in the face except maybe their wives. It’s considered an offense for one Saudi man to look another’s wife in the face. Yet ones I’ve met, at least will generally look western women in the face; which is somewhat of a double standard. There are religiously orthodox Iranian men who will look no woman in the face – at least not in public. Cultural differences.

    From a practical standpoint. There was a case here in the US where the California highway department would not issue a certain Muslim woman a driver’s licence because she refused to take the niquaab off for the photo. She could leave the scarf on. They just needed a photo of her full face. Even though I’m well aware of the cultural issues to some this creates; to me it seems like a reasonable demand that she take off the face vail for a driver’s license photo. Maybe I’m being “culturally insensitive” but to me that seems reasonable.

    Likewise – I think it would be reasonable for schools or places of employment to ban other forms of dress that partially or fully cover the face of the students or employees. I don’t agree with head scarf bans; and if a woman wants to go to the grocery store in a burqa – I don’t necessiarly see a problem with that either. I saw a lady about a month ago in the grocery store wearing a burqa; she had the face piece removed though and elastic in the bottom part of the face hole so she could pull it under her chin. I think she was an Afgahni refugee, because when she walked into the grocery store and got a look at the produce department; she just got this grin on her face like I’d never seen before.

    As for security cameras in schools, here in the US; any student who wears a hijab to school is going to be far more identifiable on a security camera than anyone else – especially if it’s a regular practice of that student. Hijabs are permitted in the surburban schools around me.

    So anyways – IMHO!   

  • I read about this in the Huffington Post a couple of hours ago.

    From what I heard, he is basically doing it to force Muslim immigrants to assimilate into French culture and society, which rejects the idea of burqas and similar attire because it is seen as an object of oppression used by Muslim men on subservient Muslim women.

    Which is ironic, because France has the largest Muslim population in Western Europe.

    If France considers itself a free country that protects the liberties of the people, it shouldn’t try to persecute women on the basis of what they wear, specifically if they do it for religious reasons and so long as it doesn’t break public decency laws (which burqas obviously don’t).

    However, burquas have their stereotypes. A woman who chooses to wear one most likely realizes what they’re subjecting themselves to in matters of public opinion when they could just as easily where modern clothing that covers all of their features.

    So, it is going to be a fight between the people and the government.

  • I’d gladly move to France. My university is full of obnoxious hijabis, who talk loudly and wear too much makeup. Some wear tight jeans and high heels, some even hooker boots.

    P.S. How is it ok for Middle East to demand foreigners to wear hijabs, but not the other way around? And they scream Islamophobia.

    The fact of the matter is, if they want to dress “modestly” (which is crock in my opinion, a religious cloth on your head does not make you modest), they can move to my home country and live under Sharia Law. It’s great.

  • @endlesslysummer - I thought of that, too. Although I feel this is a very unfair and discriminative position for any country to take, these Muslims might want to take in account the fact that countries in which their faith is predominant will demand that women (even foreign women, at times) wear it, and even police the streets to do so. France needs to respect women by allowing them to wear the burqua, and Islamic countries need to respect women by not forcing them to wear the burqua. It seems none of these are going to happen anytime soon.

  • @mikenpeg - Thank you for being civil. That’s basically what I wanted to say, but I was too angry to express myself properly.

    I’m tired of Muslims not saying anything about our homelands being extremely intolerant to other religions, yet demanding that others accept us. It’s not fair, at all. And just as you said, France is pissed too and doing the extreme opposite. It’s not going to be pretty.

  • @endlesslysummer - Well, I was raised Amish, so I know a little bit- actually, a lot- about oppression of women. Discrimination is never pretty, and it happens way too much.

  • It is not body covering that is at issue here, but fully obscuring the face.  Western cultures demand visual recognition and eye contact.  Having one’s face covered at all times presents a security hazard (my bank does not even allow me to wear a hat on the premises–employees need to be able to see who they are dealing with and potential bank robbers need to be identifiable).  It’s also a personal safety hazard, as it restricts the visual field.  I would not want anyone driving with one of those things on.  I don’t think any government should ban such garments, but they should ban families and religious institutions from forcing women to wear them.  And those who “choose” to cover their faces and refuse to remove their veils should be prepared to be disallowed from participating in some activities.  

  • In my opinion, the French government is being a little too rash in this matter.  I completely understand why certain clothing that blocks the view of someone’s face could in fact be a hazard if the person wearing a burqa is a potential criminal but I do not think it is fair to absolutely ban such clothing.  The French government should only ban the wearing of certain clothing, including western-style clothing like hats and scarves, in government buildings such as banks and courthouses and places of international travel (obviously, the airports).  The French government should not oppress the religious view of Muslims or any other religion for that matter.  Women have the right to wear what ever they deem appropriate for them, even if it is seen as oppressive towards women or seen as a tool towards male supremacy.   

  • I am just thinking of all the woman that will now either choose to stay in their home or be forced to stay in their home because they can’t wear a veil.

  • I see it as a security issue….it is too bad that it has to cross some sensitive lines and hurt some peoples’ religious views.

  • I think France is just being insecure.

  •  It’s too bad that this is happening in a first world country. People have no acceptance of diversity and differences.

    I mean, such as the vote news, if they want identification, they can set up a room just for that and with female employee to do the check. This way is win win on both side.

    If I am living in France and is wearing burqas…I would think if I really want to live in a place that doesn’t accept me.

  • @hala292 - very good… it is refreshing to read a comment from someone who actually has the credentials to say something on the topic.

  • Assalamualaikum
    Should a government be allowed to tell
    a woman that she has to go against her religious beliefs or her
    thoughts on modesty? Definitely NO!!.

    Does the government have the right to make women
    remove their burqa when they want to wear it? To remove temporarily for facial inspection out of security purpose, YES. But to remove permanently, NO!!

    My sincere advice to all Muslim women is be moderate to yourself and
    others surround you for God loves moderation. Out of respect of foreign law, it is better wear the hijab instead of
    the burqa when you are in foreign countries especially Europe. As mentioned
    in the Qur’an :

    O
    ye who believe! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made
    lawful for you but commit no excess: for Allah loveth not those given
    to excess. (5:87)

  • This is certainly atrocious and unwelcome….I see this as part of the ‘frustration’ which the world is facing in attempting to label ‘islamic terrorism’ and still being unable to curb it…!! Since the root theory of the accusation on islam about terrorism is incorrect the end results wouldnt be the same as desired, hence the frustrations spill out elsewhere.!!

  • @hala292 - I wish I could have known you back a couple months ago. My opinion is that if you want to wear a burqua or anything such that you should (except of course for security photos and those type of situations). My case was that banning burquas was just as oppressive as forcing them on women. A girl was actually arguing with me saying that she didn’t believe there was any muslim women out there who chose to wear a burqua and kept repeating to me “I cannot believe you fight for the oppression of woman.”. That girl really is an idiot.

    This whole deal with France looks like religious oppression to me. As much as I hate religion, I don’t like it. Everyone should be able to practice what they please (as long as it doesnt harm others).

  • @MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy_MrsDarcy - Well, like Kristen said, please read this blog: 

    http://teeraljannah.xanga.com/705363856/dont-tell-me-what-my-niqaab-does-for-me-kthanks/

    if you still don’t understand the logic behind wearing the niqaab, feel free to ask questions :)

  • @MangoWOW - lol i wish i could have a talk with that girl and introduce her to many of my niqaabi-friends! mostly all of them were raised in nonmuslim families or families that weren’t practicing muslims. none of them were taught to cover. they started covering from their own choice, facing many oppositions from family members and friends.  

    i guess according to that girl, most of my niqaabi-friends chose to go from living in “freedom” to living in “oppression”. it makes perfect sense. lol 

  • France outlawed these things because it is a secular country.  They have never claimed to have religious backgrounds and being a secular nation the President of France deemed it necessary to outlaw these coverings.  Also, for the niqab the President says it brings thoughts of suffering and oppression and I personally wouldn’t go as far as banning it, but when I see the coverings I do think of oppression.

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