January 27, 2010
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Horrible Horrible G-d
Wondering if people who think the Torah is impossible to follow then think that G-d is a horrible horrible person. After all the Jews were to follow it when it was given to them. When did it become such a horrible thing? Why do people look at it as horrible and impossible to follow? I just can’t follow the line of thought.
Also Doesn’t it make not following stuff the G-d said would last until the end of time and saying it is no longer valid make G-d into a God who changes (though He says “I am G-d I change not”) or a liar?
Yeshua (Jesus) was a Torah observant, tallit-wearing, Seventh Day Sabbath and Biblical Feast-keeping, kosher Jew!
Many insist, “all that Old Testament stuff was just for the Jews” – while not realizing there were no Jews before Jacob begat the Tribe of Judah! Adam and Eve (Gen. 2) weren’t Jews; Cain and Abel (Gen. 4) who offered sin sacrifices weren’t Jews; and neither was Noah (Gen. 6) who knew the difference between “clean and unclean” animals; and neither were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And yet, ALL believers in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were Torah observant!
Without G-d’s Torah, man would have no blueprint for moral, holy living! Man would not know right from wrong, good from evil. Without G-d’s Torah (first five Books of the Bible), man wouldn’t know what separates right from wrong, good from evil, or what constitutes “sin”.
Where did Yeshua (Jesus) personally ever say that His death was to negate His Father’s Torah? In view of Numbers 15:13-16, it’s logical to assume that ALL believers are to be Torah observant, because G-d Himself, in that passage, said it a total of four times, in four different ways:
Numbers 15: 13 “‘Everyone who is native-born must do these things in this way when he brings an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD. 14 For the generations to come, whenever an alien or anyone else living among you presents an offering made by fire as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, he must do exactly as you do. 15 The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD: 16 The same laws and regulations will apply both to you and to the alien living among you.’”
Please re-read the above in case you missed it: Any Torah-less non-Jew/Hebrew/Israelite who does not yet believe in the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is an “alien”/foreigner. However, if they do wish to accept Him, then they are to do exactly as those who are already belong to Him!
“Living among” means not necessarily physically, but rather, it refers to all those who have accepted the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They MUST be Torah observant, just like the Houses of Israel and Judah were with whom G-d made His New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:32)!
Romans 10: 12. And in this, it discriminates neither Jews nor Gentiles. For there is one, Master YHWH, over them all, who is abundantly generous towards every one that calls on him. 13. For everyone that will call on the name of Master YHWH, will have life.
In view of the above, it would seem that those who claim to “love” G-d would WANT to obey His “forever” commands instead of coming up with their own rules.
Look at pets. They are safe and sound as long as they stay within the boundaries of your fenced-in property. But, from the moment they decided to climb over that fence, there is no guarantee they won’t get hit by a car or shot by a mean neighbor. Life has rules we simply cannot ignore.
The Torah is full of rules – how to worship G-d, how to treat each other according to Him, what we can and can’t eat (have you ever noticed that all the animals that G-d considers “unclean” are the carnivores who eat anything including disease-laden garbage and roadkill?).
G-d wasn’t “cursing” man when He gave man rules to live by.
Matthew 22: 36. “Teacher, which Commandment in Torah is the greatest?” 37. And Y’shua said to him, that “You should love Master YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might and with all your mind.” 38. This is the first and the greatest Commandment. 39. And the second is like it. That “You should love your neighbor as yourself.” 40. On these two commandments hang Torah and the prophets.
Note, they HANG on Torah. It doesn’t say they REPLACED the Torah! Most Christians don’t mind adhering to the Ten Commandments (even though they don’t bother to keep even the Fourth Commandment concerning the seventh-day Sabbath) which are part of Torah, as well. Man has always liked to “pick and choose” when it comes to G-d’s Word, but it’s time to realize that seventh-day Sabbath command, along with His seven Biblical feasts were NEVER abolished – on the cross, or anywhere else! There were parts of Torah that G-d said would endure FOREVER – and the Seventh Day Sabbath and the Biblical Feasts are among them….
2 Timothy 3: 16. All Scripture that was written by the Spirit is profitable for instruction and for decisive refutation, and for correction, and for deep extensive learning in righteousness; 17. that the man of Elohim may become perfect and complete for every good work.
Torah contains exactly what G-d wanted us to know about Himself, how He wants to be worshiped, and how we are to live together in harmony according to G-D’S commands.
Numbers 15:13-16 tell us that ALL are to observe His Mitzvot (Words/Commands).
Isaiah 66: 22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. 24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
G-d said His Torah would stand FOREVER (2 Chronicles 7:14-22). Forever didn’t end when Christianity came onto the scene. On Judgment Day He will ask you why you chose to ignore His Torah, why you changed His seventh-day Sabbath, and why you didn’t keep the feasts that He commanded to be kept forever, and which will be continued in heaven:
Exodus 31: 13 “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.”
Exodus 31: 16 “Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. (Romans 3:31)
Comments (15)
Do you know of any meat companies that dont hurt the animals? I read your husbands post, googled peta and it affected me a lot more than I thought it would. I eat meat and I was a meat cutter before, but the cruelty thing is really bothering me when I think about it, any comments?
@letseewhatthiswilldo - If you buy meat that is Kosher it is not a problem
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/consumer/featured_companies
Just search for Kosher companies
Before Sinai there was no Torah law given. The Avrahamic Covenant would be the Noahide Laws plus brit milah (circumcism).While some commentary says the Patriachs observed Torah Law, based on Gen 26:5, simple reading of the text shows they did not.Just two examples that stand out are Avraham ate venison that Essau hunted. While obviously a kosher animal, this is not kosher slaughter.Jacob married two sisters, something prohibited by Torah law.
While,if he was observant, Jesus would have worn tzitzi attached to his actual everyday garment, he didn’t wear a tallit.It wasn’t until the second or third century C.E.that it was common for the scholar class ,though not necessarily for the masses, to attach fringes to a large tallit that extended over the whole body.
Torah is very clear that its laws are for Israel alone. The word Ger ( stranger) is used quite a bit, but it shows two types of Gerim, ger toshav and ger tzedek. Ger Toshav were those gentiles that accepted the God of Israel, but were not converts. They could either be Noahides and follow the seven laws of Noah or appeal to a Jewish Court to be accepted into the community and folow what Torah laws a gentile is permitted to follow.The ger tzedek is a convert to Judaism and follows Torah law since he is now according to Torah law, a Jew.Ex 12:19 shows the stranger that is a ger tzedek since he is to follow the law of Passover to be rid of chometz (leavening and leavened goods).Ex 12:43-44 shows one stranger is a ger toshav since he is not permitted to eat from the pascal lamb, yet in 44 shows that one that is circumcised (ger tzedek) may eat it.A Jew or a ger Tzedek is not alowed to eat anything that died of itself (Lev 17:15), but can sell it as food to the stranger (ger toshav)(Deut 14:21).
The only way that Christianity can give itself any iota of validity in the minds of its followers is to say that Judaism,Torah and the promises of God through te Prophets is no longer valid.
Most Fundamentalist and Evangelical Christians adhere to the theology of “supercessionism,” also called “displacement theology.” According to this theory, first developed by St. Justin Martyr and St. Irenaeus of Lyon (circa 130 to 200 CE), when Jesus completed his “ministry on earth,” Christianity’s “New Testament” superseded Judaism’s “old” one.This was based on the writings of Paul.
Supercessionism meant that G-d had unilaterally abrogated the “Old Covenant” with the Jewish people and that Judaism was now denigrated to a state of permanent inferiority vis-a-vis the glorious “New Covenant,” Christianity.
This change in G-d’s outlook, so to speak, is graphically dramatized to Christian believers by the lurid description in Mark (15:38) of how the veil before the Holy of Holies in the Temple was “ripped in twain” by invisible hands at the precise moment when “Jesus gave up the ghost,” a story not confirmed in Josephus or anywhere else.
Nevertheless, by the 4th century, supercessionism in one form or another was the accepted doctrine of the Church.
According to this ingenious theory, while the Jews retained all the Biblical prophets’ criticism and condemnation, the Biblical blessings were somehow transferred to the new coalescing Church instead of Israel.
The Jews’ inexplicable refusal to accept Christianity soon precipitated vicious popular myths of Jewish stubbornness, depravity, anopia, and eventually even unholy Satanic connections. This motive provided the underpinning of the traditional Catholic prayer which entreated G-d to lift the veil “from Jewish blindness” so they could become good Catholics.In this, they were following the Gospels, where Jesus was constantly threatening his unbelieving listeners with the wrath of Heaven.
The Gospel according to John was the first to tar the Jewish people with the devil’s brush: “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do” (John 8: 44).
What do you think of Peter’s vision of the unclean animals coming down in a sheet, and God telling Him not to consider unclean what he has made clean… ? I know it was just a vision, but it was from God, and God was telling Peter that some things are “different” than they used to be. For instance, didn’t Gentiles have to go through various rites, etc. to become a proselyte in the O.T., yet God was telling Peter that “now” things are quite different and Gentiles only need to believe to be a child of God. In this way, God would have changed something that was concrete in the O.T. to something totally different in the New.
Even Jesus showed Himself to be much more concerned about things other than the Law… when the Pharisees brought the adulterous woman to Him, He simply told her to go and sin no more. Since they HAD witnesses, and the necessary courts of the Law were in place to convict her, the Old Testament would definitely have required that she be stoned. Yet, Jesus totally ignored that. Torah observant??
Various Gentiles came to believe on Christ in His ministry, even Roman soldiers. Jesus did not even mention the Law to these people, and not being Jews, they certainly would not have had a knowledge of what the Law required. Yet, Jesus never once told people to go study the Law and do what it says… He told them to follow “My” commandments; to the soldiers, he said to put away their swords. Even that statement would have been totally different from the O.T., where being a man of war was perfectly accepted. It cannot be assumed that by “My” commandments that Jesus meant the Law, because his Gentile audience would have no knowledge of the Law- what they knew of “His” commandments were the verbal teachings He gave them which are now recorded in the New Testament.
Throughout the New Testament as well, Jesus showed less compassion to the Torah-obeying Pharisees and Jews than anyone else. Paul’s letters are filled with admonition for those Jews who were demanding that Gentiles be circumcised and follow the Law. Circumcision was DEFINITELY a requirement fin the O.T. yet Paul says “if ye be led of the Spirit, ye be not under the Law.” Gal. 5:18. It is simply your assumption that Paul meant the “add-on” laws and not the O.T. Laws. What proof do you have of that? If he would not have been talking about the O.T. Law, why would he have negated circumcision? He says, in the same chapter: “For in Jesus Christ, neither circumcision availeth anything nor circumcision.” and “for all the Law is fulfilled in one word…thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.”
Another question: how could the Old Testament patriarchs like Abraham, Jacob, etc. have been able to follow the ENTIRE Torah if it was not even written until Moses’ time? In addition to that, if the early patriarchs were aware of the entire Law and followed it, and passed it to their children, why would it even have been necessary for God to give it to the Israelites, since they would have KNOWN it already, according to what you say.
I respect what you believe, about the O.T., but you don’t need to be constantly insinuating that your interpretation of what was the Law and what wasn’t is the only correct one, or that “all believers are to be Torah-observant.” (quote from post) I may disagree with you on some things, but at least I am not telling you that you are not a believer because you do not think the way I do. It reminds me a lot of my Amish family, and how they view everyone different from them to be wrong, even if they visibly and obviously have the Spirit of God within them.I find the God and Jesus of the Bible to be far more merciful and understanding of Gentiles than you are.
@Hezakiah4 - What you say is very interesting. I’d love if you could tell me what parts of the Torah were required for a Gentile convert versus an Israelite. My husband does quite a bit of studying in Jewish history and writings, and he says it is important to remember that the Law was established for the effective rule of Israel as nation, therefore many of the justice/punishment laws, as well as many others. This would correlate with what you are saying of the difference in the laws for a Gentile versus a Jew. For the Jew, the Law was the government.
Also, isn’t pork considered unclean? To my knowledge, pigs are not carnivores.
@mikenpeg - A convert is exactly the same as a born Jew with the exception of not being any tribe, since tribal linage is paternal.They are obligated to follow whatever halacha pertains to them being man or woman, married,single,ect.
Torah law reflects two basic catagories;the do’s and don’t's of man’s relationship with God and man’s relationship with their fellow man.It is not for the government strictly speaking.
Here is a link that will clarify what law is for what and who with reference to verse;.faster than listing them all here.LOL
Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
@Hezakiah4 - Very interesting! Thank you…
One question… I noticed that it says a widow may only remarry to her husband’s brother, as well as the brother being instructed to marry his brother’s widow. How is that possible in today’s monogamous society?
@mikenpeg - What is refered to as a levirate marriage (no,it has nothing to do with the tribe of Levi) is not practiced today except among some Orthodox. Since we are not allowed more than wife anymore since we have to follow civil law as long as it doesn’t contradict Torah law (Torah says a man can have more than one wife, but doesn’t say he has to), it would only occur if the brother was single.
@Hezakiah4 - Ok, makes sense. Thanks.
@mikenpeg - Considering that just about every single Christian commentator says Peter’s “vision” wasn’t saying the dietary laws are changed ,but an alegory that gentiles not be looked at as being unclean, what’s your point? That you can have a maggot sandwich if you like? Also considering the fact that the followers of Jesus were all Pharisees and that he,himself was a Pharisee of Beit Hillel IF, and this is a big if, what it portrays him repeating from the rabbinic writings is true.The Pharisaic school of thought that considered Gentiles unclean, unable to attain a relationship with God, and unfit to convert were the Pharisaic school of Beit Shammai.
Jesus’ commandments? Then he obviously contrdicted himself in that point as well as all the other places in the Christian book. Mat 19:17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Gee, looks like HE”S saying to enter eternal life to follow the Torah law.Of course he was speaking to Jews,not gentiles.He refered to gentiles as dogs (Mat 15:22-26) and told his disciples to avoid gentiles in their preaching (Mat 10:5)
That’s really funny since Paul wouldn’t circumcise Titus because he was a gentile ,but did Timothy since he was a Jew.Try reading it again.According to Paul, who apparently overides not only God in the Hebrew scriptures, but your “messiah” as well, Jesus was the final sacrifice,yet the ones that ate,lived and learned with Jesus kept making oferings and all the rest.My guess is Paul really choked when he was called before the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 and then was told to go make the proper offerings.Paul also claimed there is no remission of sin without blood sacrifice,yet over and over in the Jewish scriptures shows that repentence,prayer and charity remit sin on their own.TRUE BIBLICAL TEACHINGS ABOUT ATONEMENT | Hezakiah4 on Xanga Paul obviously never read nor heard much of the scriptures.
Paul’s twisted concept of what Jeremiah says about a new covenant is extremely blaring. Not only does he decide he’s going to declare it is really a human sacrificial cult instead of what God says through the Prophet, but he doesn’t even quote the Prophet’s writings correctly.New Covenant ? | Hezakiah4 on Xanga
I think we have some new commandments, Kristen.
1 Thessalonians 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
Which commandments did they give us by the Lord Jesus?
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
http://www.loveallpeople.org/pearl-thecommandmentsofjesus.html
The old commandments just show us what you aren’t. The new commandments show us what you are. What are you? Or are you just going to show us what you aren’t?
You are saying in previous posts that faith without works are dead. By what law? The older laws or the newer ones?
I believe Torah should be followed for a love of it. Faith proceeds practice. Even the Talmud states that study is greater than practice. Having Torah written upon your heart and inward being will make you love to practice. As far as anyone saying Yeshua was not a Torah practicer would then nullify the whole of the Brit Chadasha anyway, for it is based upon Yeshua fulfilling the law by being perfect in it.
As far as Paul his own words “arcording to Torah I am blameless” (Philippians 3:6). So Paul himself in the new covenant still kept Torah according to his own words. Though the same Paul stated (Romans 10:4) “For Christ is the end of Torah for righteousness to every one that believeth.” Meaning that The Torah was no longer the path in which we become righteous. If someone chooses not to practice Torah, I say let them not practice. If someone chooses not to learn from Torah I say foolishness. No one can tell another how to serve HaShem, as far as for you and I we will serve him through his whole WORD.
Shalom.
Boy oh boy! Am I ever learning new things!!
“Where did Yeshua (Jesus) personally ever say that His death was to negate His Father’s Torah? “
When Jesus came to Earth to live the perfect life, and die the perfect death, and ressurrect after 3 days, claiming victory over death, it was through Him that a new covenant was established. Not to say Learning from the Old Testament isn’t important, because it’s now basically just a manual to show us the old laws, and the ways the Hebrews broke the laws and failed to live up to God’s expectations of them. Therefore God needed to send Jesus to SAVE them from eternal damnation.
Hebrews 8:7-10 7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and saida]’>[a]: ”The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
and
Romans 8:1-4 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,a]’>[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,b]’>[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.c]’>[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,d]’>[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
…are just a few examples of verses stating this in the Bible where we no longer need to follow the ways of the old testament but now follow the ways of the new one instead. Jesus gave us laws to abide by when He came. What do you think the sermon on the Mount was for?