Something designed to tear religion apart strengthened my stance on just how amazing God is. Thank you for posting that.
I love that video. There was a response done – I thought it was meridianfrost – that parodied it and was hilarious. I can’t find that other video now…lame.
@jmallory - The video is critical of religion, not god. And it only strengthened your beliefs because of the assumptions you bring to the table.
wonderful post! can’t wait to go kneel down and, and tie my shoe.
so i can run faster and marvel at… this wonderful universe.
and one day hopefully, be safe from religion.
@NightCometh - you should remember, by our many times we talked about it. I didn’t call myself a christian. So the question you ask is an invald one because I didn’t call myself one to begin with.
@xplorrn - I would love to be able to physically be able to travel all around to different galaxies exploring. I would be so awesome. To bad that we don’t have the knowledge at this point to be able to make that a reality.
great video:) I think that science is wonderful. I think that God is wonderful. They coexist for me.
But then again…this video says that I’m a threat. I’m going to be a clergy person. lol
I’m really not a threat.
So you don’t see this as a giant piece of propaganda?
(Stuff one reads about in 3rd grade) –> All religions must be false. Clearly. Argument from insignificance. What a joke.
Eh… The overt bashing of religion is always a turn off. I was always taught that when one side of a debate runs out of things to say they resort merely to responding to, and subsequently insulting, the other side. You can’t really prove a negative. Frankly, I find his story no different from that of many religious people. I also find his distorted view on tribal religion a bit appalling.
@The_ATM - It’s an inspirational video clip, not a fully fleshed out argument against religion.
@striemmy - “inspirational video clip” would be what I consider a euphemism for propaganda when it is trying to sell a message using the emotion it is attempting to invoke.
@The_ATM - Except that the emotion it invokes can be tilted either way as jmallory pointed out. Only people on the fence and already leaning towards science would let something like this push them over the edge. For everyone else it’s a bunch of pretty pictures and interesting facts.
@striemmy - The emotion could be, but the shift in discussion halfway through the video is a pretty good indication that it is propaganda. It wants to create the sense of awe and then shift to hating religion. Granted for people with firm opposing beliefs, the heightened emotion will not carry over, but propaganda is always geared toward people on the fence.
@Kristenmomof3 - hmmm… i go there quite often… i agree (and i don’t do drugs or personally advocate their use, just trying to be funny) but i’m absolutely with you, it would be spectacular to witness… i just watched the movie ‘contact’ w/ jodie foster w/ my family about a month ago… quite an interesting discussion with a teenager and a tweenager!
“It’s like the universe screams in your face do you know what I am, how grand I am , how old I am? Can you even comprehend what I am?” I like that. Science rules. The first five minutes were wonderful. And the creator of this piece is right that God wants us to see and learn about the universe and that he made it. After all, it reveals him according to the Christian scriptures. The universe is quite obviously beautiful. I’v never understood why anyone would separate science from worship.
The use of MLKjr near the end was interesting. I wonder what that was about.
@Kristenmomof3 -to @NightCometh - you should remember, by our many times we talked about it. I didn’t call myself a christian.
I never heard that conversation. What do you believe about God and Jesus? Is there another religion you believe in, or are you an atheist?
@LSP1 - to answer the question. At one point I was a Messianic believer or Follower of Yeshua. I stayed away from the word Christian. Nightcometh and I talked about that more then once
@striemmy - It’s an inspirational video clip, not a fully fleshed out argument against religion.
*nods* For me, it’s poetry: Feeling and self-expression.
I also find his distorted view on tribal religion a bit appalling.
Ditto. I hated the segment’s drum music.
Just finished watching. I’m crying. I think that’s a good thing.
aww, Kristen. I love you, girlie.
i am glad you posted this because now i have a definitive answer as to what you believe right now. i did not want to pressure you, but i sort of sensed this. sometimes it takes a few knocks to my noggin before things sink in. hahhaa. but, i just wanted to make absolutely sure that you came to me with it, or posted definitively about it, rather than me assume wrongly.
and, of course it doesn’t change our friendship, so hope that reassures you some. i just am glad to know so i can be more mindful of not asking for prayers, for example. lol.
please let me know if anything i say ever makes you feel uncomfortable. i am having a boost in my faith right now, so i may post some things in the future that kind of mirror my own walk at times, but they won’t be passively aggressively aimed at anyone; but i think you already know this about me.
((buggle huggles))
i agree w/ travis above (greatbout). think he about summed up most of my thoughts best.
@JulieDeer - I dont mind when you ask for prayers about things. It is like you letting me know what is going on with your life. I am going to send you an email.
@JulieDeer - also I am not worried about our friendship or you trying to preach to me. After all, I am not your only atheist friend
@Kristenmomof3 - haha. true that. =) it’s funny b/c i have asked mark to pray and such. muahahhaaha.
@JulieDeer - person seemed like a troll. I deleted their comment. I don’t know the person and they sure as hell dont know me
@JulieDeer - I used to say it all the time. I still say it some
@Kristenmomof3 - I’m a Jewish Christian but I’m not into the messianic movement. What happened? Why are you now an atheist?
@LSP1 - facts. It was a slow transition that I did not talk much about on my blog. Reading all about the evidence for evolution and all the contradictions in the bible. I think The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins should be a required book for Seniors in high school.
I am an atheists because there is no reason to believe. I do not believe in YHVH, Thor, Allah, etc. There are thousands of gods that people have chosen to believe in with out and proof of their existence. Why don’t I believe in god? For the same reason that I don’t believe in the tooth fairy simply because there is no proof that she exists.
Historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities. I don’t believe in 2,870 gods, and you don’t believe in 2,869.
@The_ATM - …but the shift in discussion halfway through the video is a pretty good indication that it is propaganda. It wants to create the sense of awe and then shift to hating religion…
This is such bullshit. “Propaganda” is only your epithet for disagreement.
You’re making a judgement of the clip’s intent without having spoken with or knowing of its author. You’re no more telepathic than the rest of us.
The middle-third of the clip was critical of religion, but it was within the context of the author’s transcendent moment (first third of the clip) and his realizations (last third of the clip).
On face, the clip is one of self-expression: The author’s ephinay, thoughts, and opinions. It takes more than attempts at persuasion and religious-critique to descend to “propaganda”– and you’ve made no attempt to justify the characterization. So fuck you and fuck off.
@Celestial_Teapot - “It takes more than attempts at persuasion and religious-critique to descend to “propaganda”– and you’ve made no attempt to justify the characterization.”
It seems pretty obvious to me.
“The middle-third of the clip was critical of religion, but it was within the context of the author’s transcendent moment (first third of the clip) and his realizations (last third of the clip).”
Sure. Ever gone to church and heard people’s stories of how they were saved? Ever heard one that was really polished and able to very well bring you to a climax of emotion before they go on stating what they want you to believe? Maybe not, but that is exactly what this video and this guys ‘testimony’ is an attempt to do. For being so critical of religion, it seems a little silly for one to want to use their tactics. I guess it isn’t so surprising, the illogical part of the brain religion often manages to grasp onto is susceptible to all sorts of nonsense.
To say the video is propaganda, is not to say it must absolutely be false, just that it shouldn’t be looked at uncritically.
“You’re making a judgement of the clip’s intent without having spoken with or knowing of its author.”
You don’t have to know the author to know the intent. Is this propaganda? Isn’t it safe to say it is, even though you do not know the author?
“This is such bullshit. “Propaganda” is only your epithet for disagreement.” and “So fuck you and fuck off.”
lol. I disagree with you. Big deal. Are you this angry in real life or is the propaganda having some effect on your judgement? You really have not provided much reasoning as to why this video isn’t propaganda. All I have to do to prove it is, is to show one instance in which it uses a propagandist technique to promote it’s message. Do you think that would be difficult? It is not.
Maybe you hold to your own special definition of “propaganda.”
Sure. Ever gone to church and heard people’s stories of how they were saved? Ever heard one that was really polished and able to very well bring you to a climax of emotion before they go on stating what they want you to believe? Maybe not, but that is exactly what this video and this guys ‘testimony’ is an attempt to do.
(1) Religious tesitmony isn’t “propaganda.”
(2) Even if religious tesitimony “propganda,” the video isn’t analogous. The clip is given outside of a church, by a non-Christian. The video, by itself an instance of the creator’s self-expressions. Not every composition of one’s views constitutes serious attempts at persuasion. Not every instance of critique is “propaganda.”
(3) Intrinsic in “testimony” attempt at religious persuasion. You’ve never even forwarded an argument or cited contextual evidence from the clip to illustrates the creator’s intent in conversions.
“To say the video is propaganda, is not to say it must absolutely be false, just that it shouldn’t be looked at uncritically.”
Try looking up the definition of proganda. There has to be some attempt at mass distribution by the creator of the youtube clip or an insitutitonal advocate for it to be considered such.
‘Maybe you hold to your own special definition of “propaganda.”‘
“
Propaganda
is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself.
As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. ”
Wikipedia’s works for me.
‘(1) Religious tesitmony isn’t “propaganda.”‘
No but the accompanying use of emotion in place of reasoning is usually propaganda.
‘(2) Even if religious tesitimony “propganda,” the video isn’t analogous. The clip is given outside of a church, by a non-Christian. The video, by itself an instance of the creator’s self-expressions. Not every composition of one’s views constitutes serious attempts at persuasion. Not every instance of critique is “propaganda.”‘
Comparisons are not done to show things are equivalent but to emphasize similarities or differences. Yes you are correct to say not every composition of one’s views are serious attempts at persuasion, but ones that are placed in videos disseminated in posts with titles like “Science saved my soul” are.
“(3) Intrinsic in “testimony” attempt at religious persuasion. You’ve never even forwarded an argument or cited contextual evidence from the clip to illustrates the creator’s intent in conversions.”
I already addressed the idea that you do not have to know intent to determine whether something can be considered propaganda or not. Of course, you ignored this and moved on. But with this video, and often with propaganda the intent is implicit. You can infer the intent. Not all propaganda needs to be geared toward converting someone as you seem to be suggesting.
“Try looking up the definition of proganda. There has to be some attempt at mass distribution by the creator of the youtube clip or an insitutitonal advocate for it to be considered such.
Not necessarily. One could make something that is propaganda but never end up distributing it. It would still be propaganda based on how it was designed. In this sense, Wikipedia has the more correct definition… and it is pretty clear why. Propaganda must be designed before it is distributed, and at some point, it must be designed but not distributed. Thus, I would rightly call what hasn’t been distributed but designed propaganda.
But even if I assume you are correct, though, putting a video on youtube is an attempt at mass distribution. Making a post on xanga is an attempt at mass distribution. I didn’t say the guy speaking in the video is the propagandist.
“To say the video is propaganda, is not to say it must absolutely be false, just that it shouldn’t be looked at uncritically.”
You critique this statement of mine, but let me quote Wikipedia, “While the term propaganda has acquired a strongly negative connotation by association with its most manipulative and jingoistic examples, propaganda in its original sense was neutral, and could refer to uses that were generally benign or innocuous, such as public health recommendations, signs encouraging citizens to participate in a census or election, or messages encouraging persons to report crimes to the police, among others.” The latter statement is essentially a summary of this quote from wikipedia. I have not directly applied bad connotations to the word as you have. ( Not that I think it is a good message, but you are the one getting all offended over the assumptions you made. )
So since you seem to be the one confused on what can be considered propaganda, you should have some homework. Listen to the video again and try to objectively determine whether any of these techniques are used in the video. Most of the prime examples are during the middle part of the video, but let us see if you can actually be objective enough to admit the possibility that there may be propagandist techniques used in this video.
Comments (41)
So…do you still consider yourself a Christian?
Something designed to tear religion apart strengthened my stance on just how amazing God is. Thank you for posting that.
I love that video. There was a response done – I thought it was meridianfrost – that parodied it and was hilarious. I can’t find that other video now…lame.
@jmallory - The video is critical of religion, not god. And it only strengthened your beliefs because of the assumptions you bring to the table.
wonderful post! can’t wait to go kneel down and, and
tie my shoe.
so i can run faster and marvel at…
this wonderful universe.
and one day hopefully, be safe from religion.
@NightCometh - you should remember, by our many times we talked about it. I didn’t call myself a christian. So the question you ask is an invald one because I didn’t call myself one to begin with.
@xplorrn - I would love to be able to physically be able to travel all around to different galaxies exploring. I would be so awesome. To bad that we don’t have the knowledge at this point to be able to make that a reality.
great video:) I think that science is wonderful. I think that God is wonderful. They coexist for me.
But then again…this video says that I’m a threat. I’m going to be a clergy person. lol
I’m really not a threat.
So you don’t see this as a giant piece of propaganda?
(Stuff one reads about in 3rd grade) –> All religions must be false.
Clearly. Argument from insignificance. What a joke.
Eh… The overt bashing of religion is always a turn off. I was always taught that when one side of a debate runs out of things to say they resort merely to responding to, and subsequently insulting, the other side. You can’t really prove a negative. Frankly, I find his story no different from that of many religious people. I also find his distorted view on tribal religion a bit appalling.
@The_ATM - It’s an inspirational video clip, not a fully fleshed out argument against religion.
@striemmy - “inspirational video clip” would be what I consider a euphemism for propaganda when it is trying to sell a message using the emotion it is attempting to invoke.
@The_ATM - Except that the emotion it invokes can be tilted either way as jmallory pointed out. Only people on the fence and already leaning towards science would let something like this push them over the edge. For everyone else it’s a bunch of pretty pictures and interesting facts.
@striemmy - The emotion could be, but the shift in discussion halfway through the video is a pretty good indication that it is propaganda. It wants to create the sense of awe and then shift to hating religion. Granted for people with firm opposing beliefs, the heightened emotion will not carry over, but propaganda is always geared toward people on the fence.
@The_ATM - Good point.
Lovely!
@Kristenmomof3 - hmmm… i go there quite often…
i agree (and i don’t do drugs or personally advocate their use, just trying to be funny)
but i’m absolutely with you, it would be spectacular to witness… i just watched the movie
‘contact’ w/ jodie foster w/ my family about a month ago… quite an interesting discussion
with a teenager and a tweenager!
“It’s like the universe screams in your face do you know what I am, how grand I am , how old I am? Can you even comprehend what I am?” I like that. Science rules. The first five minutes were wonderful. And the creator of this piece is right that God wants us to see and learn about the universe and that he made it. After all, it reveals him according to the Christian scriptures. The universe is quite obviously beautiful. I’v never understood why anyone would separate science from worship.
The use of MLKjr near the end was interesting. I wonder what that was about.
@Kristenmomof3 -to @NightCometh - you should remember, by our many times we talked about it. I didn’t call myself a christian.
I never heard that conversation. What do you believe about God and Jesus? Is there another religion you believe in, or are you an atheist?
@LSP1 - I am an atheist.
@LSP1 - to answer the question. At one point I was a Messianic believer or Follower of Yeshua. I stayed away from the word Christian. Nightcometh and I talked about that more then once
@striemmy - It’s an inspirational video clip, not a fully fleshed out argument against religion.
*nods* For me, it’s poetry: Feeling and self-expression.
I also find his distorted view on tribal religion a bit appalling.
Ditto. I hated the segment’s drum music.
Just finished watching. I’m crying. I think that’s a good thing.
aww, Kristen. I love you, girlie.
i am glad you posted this because now i have a definitive answer as to what you believe right now. i did not want to pressure you, but i sort of sensed this. sometimes it takes a few knocks to my noggin before things sink in. hahhaa. but, i just wanted to make absolutely sure that you came to me with it, or posted definitively about it, rather than me assume wrongly.
and, of course it doesn’t change our friendship, so hope that reassures you some. i just am glad to know so i can be more mindful of not asking for prayers, for example. lol.
please let me know if anything i say ever makes you feel uncomfortable. i am having a boost in my faith right now, so i may post some things in the future that kind of mirror my own walk at times, but they won’t be passively aggressively aimed at anyone; but i think you already know this about me.
((buggle huggles))
i agree w/ travis above (greatbout). think he about summed up most of my thoughts best.
@JulieDeer - I dont mind when you ask for prayers about things. It is like you letting me know what is going on with your life. I am going to send you an email.
@JulieDeer - also I am not worried about our friendship or you trying to preach to me. After all, I am not your only atheist friend
@Kristenmomof3 - haha. true that. =) it’s funny b/c i have asked mark to pray and such. muahahhaaha.
of course, he does say ‘no’. lol.
@Kristenmomof3 - okay, dearie, dear deer. =) Hugglesworth
@JulieDeer - Had to laugh at the “dearie, dear deer.” It made me think of how I say “okie dokie artichokie”
@Kristenmomof3 - hahaha. i like that one. =)
@phosphorickike - ?
@JulieDeer - person seemed like a troll. I deleted their comment. I don’t know the person and they sure as hell dont know me
@JulieDeer - I used to say it all the time. I still say it some
@Kristenmomof3 - I’m a Jewish Christian but I’m not into the messianic movement. What happened? Why are you now an atheist?
@LSP1 - facts. It was a slow transition that I did not talk much about on my blog. Reading all about the evidence for evolution and all the contradictions in the bible. I think The Greatest Show on Earth by Richard Dawkins should be a required book for Seniors in high school.
I am an atheists because there is no reason to believe. I do not believe in YHVH, Thor, Allah, etc. There are thousands of gods that people have chosen to believe in with out and proof of their existence. Why don’t I believe in god? For the same reason that I don’t believe in the tooth fairy simply because there is no proof that she exists.
Historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities. I don’t believe in 2,870 gods, and you don’t believe in 2,869.
@The_ATM - …but the shift in discussion halfway through the video is a pretty good indication that it is propaganda. It wants to create the sense of awe and then shift to hating religion…
This is such bullshit. “Propaganda” is only your epithet for disagreement.
You’re making a judgement of the clip’s intent without having spoken with or knowing of its author. You’re no more telepathic than the rest of us.
The middle-third of the clip was critical of religion, but it was within the context of the author’s transcendent moment (first third of the clip) and his realizations (last third of the clip).
On face, the clip is one of self-expression: The author’s ephinay, thoughts, and opinions. It takes more than attempts at persuasion and religious-critique to descend to “propaganda”– and you’ve made no attempt to justify the characterization. So fuck you and fuck off.
@Celestial_Teapot - “It takes more than attempts at persuasion and religious-critique to descend to “propaganda”– and you’ve made no attempt to justify the characterization.”
It seems pretty obvious to me.
“The middle-third of the clip was critical of religion, but it was within the context of the author’s transcendent moment (first third of the clip) and his realizations (last third of the clip).”
Sure. Ever gone to church and heard people’s stories of how they were saved? Ever heard one that was really polished and able to very well bring you to a climax of emotion before they go on stating what they want you to believe? Maybe not, but that is exactly what this video and this guys ‘testimony’ is an attempt to do. For being so critical of religion, it seems a little silly for one to want to use their tactics. I guess it isn’t so surprising, the illogical part of the brain religion often manages to grasp onto is susceptible to all sorts of nonsense.
To say the video is propaganda, is not to say it must absolutely be false, just that it shouldn’t be looked at uncritically.
“You’re making a judgement of the clip’s intent without having spoken with or knowing of its author.”
You don’t have to know the author to know the intent. Is this propaganda? Isn’t it safe to say it is, even though you do not know the author?
“This is such bullshit. “Propaganda” is only your epithet for disagreement.” and “So fuck you and fuck off.”
lol. I disagree with you. Big deal. Are you this angry in real life or is the propaganda having some effect on your judgement? You really have not provided much reasoning as to why this video isn’t propaganda. All I have to do to prove it is, is to show one instance in which it uses a propagandist technique to promote it’s message. Do you think that would be difficult? It is not.
@The_ATM - It seems pretty obvious to me.
Maybe you hold to your own special definition of “propaganda.”
Sure. Ever gone to church and heard people’s stories of how they were saved? Ever heard one that was really polished and able to very well bring you to a climax of emotion before they go on stating what they want you to believe? Maybe not, but that is exactly what this video and this guys ‘testimony’ is an attempt to do.
(1) Religious tesitmony isn’t “propaganda.”
(2) Even if religious tesitimony “propganda,” the video isn’t analogous. The clip is given outside of a church, by a non-Christian. The video, by itself an instance of the creator’s self-expressions. Not every composition of one’s views constitutes serious attempts at persuasion. Not every instance of critique is “propaganda.”
(3) Intrinsic in “testimony” attempt at religious persuasion. You’ve never even forwarded an argument or cited contextual evidence from the clip to illustrates the creator’s intent in conversions.
“To say the video is propaganda, is not to say it must absolutely be false, just that it shouldn’t be looked at uncritically.”
Try looking up the definition of proganda. There has to be some attempt at mass distribution by the creator of the youtube clip or an insitutitonal advocate for it to be considered such.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/propaganda
@Kristenmomof3 - Ok, thanks for the reply.
@Celestial_Teapot -
‘Maybe you hold to your own special definition of “propaganda.”‘
“
Propaganda
is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself.
As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda, in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. ”
Wikipedia’s works for me.
‘(1) Religious tesitmony isn’t “propaganda.”‘
No but the accompanying use of emotion in place of reasoning is usually propaganda.
‘(2) Even if religious tesitimony “propganda,” the video isn’t analogous. The clip is given outside of a church, by a non-Christian. The video, by itself an instance of the creator’s self-expressions. Not every composition of one’s views constitutes serious attempts at persuasion. Not every instance of critique is “propaganda.”‘
Comparisons are not done to show things are equivalent but to emphasize similarities or differences. Yes you are correct to say not every composition of one’s views are serious attempts at persuasion, but ones that are placed in videos disseminated in posts with titles like “Science saved my soul” are.
“(3) Intrinsic in “testimony” attempt at religious persuasion. You’ve never even forwarded an argument or cited contextual evidence from the clip to illustrates the creator’s intent in conversions.”
I already addressed the idea that you do not have to know intent to determine whether something can be considered propaganda or not. Of course, you ignored this and moved on. But with this video, and often with propaganda the intent is implicit. You can infer the intent. Not all propaganda needs to be geared toward converting someone as you seem to be suggesting.
“Try looking up the definition of proganda. There has to be some attempt at mass distribution by the creator of the youtube clip or an insitutitonal advocate for it to be considered such.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/propaganda“
Not necessarily. One could make something that is propaganda but never end up distributing it. It would still be propaganda based on how it was designed. In this sense, Wikipedia has the more correct definition… and it is pretty clear why. Propaganda must be designed before it is distributed, and at some point, it must be designed but not distributed. Thus, I would rightly call what hasn’t been distributed but designed propaganda.
But even if I assume you are correct, though, putting a video on youtube is an attempt at mass distribution. Making a post on xanga is an attempt at mass distribution. I didn’t say the guy speaking in the video is the propagandist.
“To say the video is propaganda, is not to say it must absolutely be false, just that it shouldn’t be looked at uncritically.”
You critique this statement of mine, but let me quote Wikipedia, “While the term propaganda has acquired a strongly negative connotation by association with its most manipulative and jingoistic examples, propaganda in its original sense was neutral, and could refer to uses that were generally benign or innocuous, such as public health recommendations, signs encouraging citizens to participate in a census or election, or messages encouraging persons to report crimes to the police, among others.” The latter statement is essentially a summary of this quote from wikipedia. I have not directly applied bad connotations to the word as you have. ( Not that I think it is a good message, but you are the one getting all offended over the assumptions you made. )
So since you seem to be the one confused on what can be considered propaganda, you should have some homework. Listen to the video again and try to objectively determine whether any of these techniques are used in the video. Most of the prime examples are during the middle part of the video, but let us see if you can actually be objective enough to admit the possibility that there may be propagandist techniques used in this video.
@Kristenmomof3 - I saw this coming a long way back.