June 27, 2011
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Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him god? – Epicurus
Comments (74)
If this is a sincere question, I have an answer. If you’re merely mocking God, no answer would satisfy you, and I won’t bother. Which is it?
@grammarboy - I would love to hear your answer. Just don’t be surprised If I ask more questions. I am a person who loves asking questions. It was one of the reasons that a lot of people at my conservative mennonite highschool did not like me.
This is one of the biggest sticking points I have with religion and the concept of an omnipotent God. If His plan includes the torture, mutilation, murder, rape, abuse, and molestation of His most vulnerable creations, then His plan is unacceptable.
@Prolixity_Split - See above.
Man does evil, God gave man free will. God lets us exercise our free will. Therefore God is able but not willing. Nates answer is better.
For some reason, atheists always love to qoute this. As though this might dis-prove God or something. It leaves out that God created us with freewill. That doesn’t make him omnipotent or malevolent because he is still the one that had the power to create life and made the choice to give freewill. The only thing this shows is that Epicurus wasn’t able to comprehend freewill.
I don’t mind you asking more questions, and I’ll do my best to answer, but I’m hardly a theologian, so I might get a bit frustrated. This isn’t the easiest issue. I’m just going to call it like I see it.
God is able but not willing. God is good and does a lot to curb evil, but it’s clear just from looking around that there’s still plenty of it out there. The question is why God purposely allows ongoing evils that He could put an end to. The simplest answer is that God is God and doesn’t have to explain His motives to you, and though that’s true, it’s really not helpful for someone who wishes to understand.
The conclusion that God is malevolent is tempting on the surface, but it really doesn’t make a lot of sense. First of all, there’s the fact that so much of the Bible is about God’s goodness and mercy, and this is my experience as well. Now, it’s easy to say that God could simply be hypocritical, but what’s the motive for that? He’s omnipotent. Who’s He got to impress? Secondly, if God is really just torturing us, why bother with giving us joys and comforts? Why not just send everyone to hell and be done with it?
One of the most important reasons that there’s evil in the world is free will. God made us to choose who we are. If there were no alternative to goodness and following God, it would be a non choice. There’s a saying that goes “You can have the car in any color, as long as it’s black.” That isn’t how God operates. He gave us real choices with real consequences and the real ability to harm each other. Without this, good would have no meaning, and I suspect that this is the reason for free will in the first place.
Imagine having no choice but to be an anabaptist because of your upbringing. If you could still think for yourself, you might belong in name only, but you wouldn’t be sincere, and you’d likely be resentful. If you didn’t have the ability to even choose what to believe, you couldn’t really even be called a person. Neither of these things is God’s design for creation, for us to receive love and willingly love in return.
There’s also the fact that despite God’s goodness, evil can suit His purposes. The clearest demonstration of this is in Job, though there are numerous other biblical examples. God Himself does no evil, but He allows Satan to perpetrate all manner of wickedness against Job. This is both despite and because of the fact that God sees Job as righteous and loves the guy. Part of this is a matter of perspective. Job loses everything in terms of this world, but in the big picture, those are of no value. What he gains is the chance to prove himself righteous to God.
More than just proving who we are, though, facing evil forms who we are. I’ve faced some really terrible things in my own life and wondered at the time why God would let this happen to me. Much of it was because other people had the free will to hurt me, but I do think that it was God’s plan for me to face rock bottom to break me. In retrospect, these are the best things that have ever happened to me. They gave me reason to cry out. They gave God the opportunity to prove Himself faithful. They made me a better man and better equipped to help others. Losing everything just means losing all the impurities in the fire. I would gladly face anything God throws my way because it’s better to lose the world and gain a relationship with God than vice versa. As someone who’s done so, I assure you by experience.
As a side note, God provides. Job got back everything and more, and so did I. Sometimes, you can’t build a new building until you’ve torn down the old one. If you don’t know the new one’s coming or have trouble trusting that it is, though; losing what you have can be terrifying or seem totally unreasonable.It’s all perspective and priorities. I’m not perfect, but I have these things down.
@ETCACTOR - I agree with you on your statement.
It’s been posed that evil is not of God’s creation, but to be the absence of God, like cold is not a thing in itself, but the absence of heat. I don’t believe in God or necessarily NOT believe in him, but people act as though evil is proof God doesn’t exist… it’s like saying that “cold” is proof heat can’t exist because it’s not there. It’s really sort of stupid, to just be totally frank. I mean, sure, there is a lot of evil in the world, it’d be GREAT for him to do something about it, but then… if there IS a God and he interfered with EVERYTHING then life would be basically non-existent, you do realize? Free will couldn’t be a thing, and just because he COULD run the show, it’d be awful boring awful fast to do it all for us since it would rob us of absolutely all choices of our own. Regardless of your religious beliefs or lack of… this logic, or truly, lack of logic doesn’t really fly. Life as you know it couldn’t exist if God interfered to stop all evil, so none of the good things that happen could. There are simply prices you pay for things, that’s how it is. You wouldn’t be ABLE to complain if it were like that, I’d imagine, but if you could, I’m sure you’d whine about the lack of freedom, so you simply just can’t have it all, you know. If there is a God, he gave us free will, so we’d have something. And in a way, perhaps it’s better than running the whole show, because it allows us an infinite number of things we could NEVER have if he DID run the whole show in order to eliminate evil. So this non-logic isn’t proof he doesn’t exist, simply proof that people will absolutely complain no matter what. Because you always get SOMETHING, and you always WANT something else. So it’s simply more evidence that people… suck and if there is a God, he should be sick of us now, and kill us all, and he doesn’t, so count your blessings. =P
The problem with the question isn’t that Epicurus didn’t account for free will. The problem is that it’s posed as an abstract question about an abstract god. The Judeo-Christians don’t do this kind of philosophy/theology. It narrates a story. God is not unable, not unwilling, and does not bow down to some philosophical concept called “free will.” Rather, “sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.”
@ETCACTOR - Thanks, Michael.
@grammarboy - Mmm, Job. Yes, the poor man loses everything, including his wife and children. But it’s okay, right? He never gave up on God, so he was rewarded with a new wife and children. Except that his original wife and children were good people who also served God and had done nothing to deserve the treatment they received. So, does God only reward men for their loyalty? Are women and children worth nothing or just tools to be used to further a wager?
That example is, perhaps, the worst one anyone could ever use to illustrate any “kindness” or “benevolence” intended by God.
Does it make sense that a loving, caring God would allow so much evil to be visited upon an innocent child believer who endeavored to be His child that they simply couldn’t believe He existed anymore? You’ve attempted to explain it and I would counter that there is no explanation for the suffering visited upon newborns, infants, toddlers, and children of an omnipotent God. Whether they are pawns in His plan or the trials of their childhood are intended to prepare them for later works, there is no excusing that suffering.
@LSP1 - Omnipotent means all powerful. Dictionary.com defines it as “almighty or infinite in power, as God.” Free will to love God or follow His teachings can be achieved without introducing an evil so great that it allows newborns to be raped and murdered. This is the problem with throwing free will out as the answer to all questions. Omnipotence means that He controls the parameters; He sets the limits. Why couldn’t He, as an omnipotent and benevolent God, restrict free will by not allowing us to harm one another? You’ll argue that free will has to be limitless in order to demonstrate that people really, truly love God. Skip that argument and just explain why.
The answer given by the Theists is that of Free Will….which doesn’t answer the problem at all.
This leads to the better question I think which is how can Free Will exist if God is omnipotent and Omnicient. (Same sort of question but better I think at addressing the heart of this problem).
He knows what we will do and where we will end up before he created us. How can he then turn around and place the blame on us? We had no real freewill in the first place.
@tendollar4ways - on the last question…my husband and I (when I was in high school) tag teamed my 2 sunday school teachers about that. They ended up getting pissed off at us and told us that we were being confrontational. The really really funny thing was that he tried to compare it to me knowing what kind of Ice cream Barry would like….that didn’t fly too well.
Me and my questions tending to piss off all my teachers at my mennonite school and at church.
I was always asking questions and it seemed like people were always trying to avoid answering them.
I ended up making my 10th grade bible teacher quit teaching. He said that I made him realize that he didn’t know enough to teach. (He told me that later when we were working together at a job that I worked at.)
@Prolixity_Split - Free will to love God or follow His
teachings can be achieved without introducing an evil so great that it
allows newborns to be raped and murdered.
Wrong. That’s not freewill then. You’ve taken away the freewill of the person who chose to rape or murder.
This is the problem with throwing free will out as the answer to all questions.
It’s not a problem. It’s just that atheists don’t like the answer.
Omnipotence means that He controls the
parameters; He sets the limits. Why couldn’t He, as an omnipotent and
benevolent God, restrict free will by not allowing us to harm one
another?
Again, that’s not freewill. Every time this comes up, atheist are unable to grasp freewill.
You’ll argue that free will has to be
limitless in order to demonstrate that people really, truly love God.
Skip that argument and just explain why.
lol – Why should I skip it? Because you don’t accept it? It makes perfect sense to me. If we’re forced to love someone against our will, that is not love.
@AGreatPerhaps - I wish I could rec this comment a million times
I have a couple of problems with the “free will” explanation. First of all, if God is truly omnipotent, couldn’t he have created a world with both free will AND no evil? Considering that this is what heaven will be like (according to many Christians), this doesn’t seem that far off. Another problem with the free will argument is that while it does explain suffering caused by other people, it does not explain suffering caused by incidents outside the control of human behavior. Why would a merciful God allow suffering in the world when he could prevent it without interferring with a person’s free will?
@Prolixity_Split - Not to be argumentative, but I wouldn’t be so sure that Job’s wife was all that great. While he remained faithful, she told him that he was a fool and that he should curse God. Regardless of that, you missed my point. It’s a matter of priorities and perspective. As Paul told the Philippians “For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.” The fact that they died is no loss to them. Everything besides eternal salvation is negligible.
As for the latter portion of what you said, you can’t blame God for your own choices. If you go to nursery and stab a baby, I’m blaming you, not God. If God intended for you to stab babies, He would have said so. Would you prefer that God give you a muzzle etc. to limit you to playing at being evil but never really doing anything? That’s rather patronizing, don’t you think?
I have asked my question of FreeWill and Omniscience and have never gotten anything close to a coherent answer. It is usually stuff like LSP1.
@LSP1 -
lol – Why should I skip it? Because you don’t accept it? It makes perfect sense to me. If we’re forced to love someone against our will, that is not love.
If God knew before he created you if you were going to love him or not, that aint exacty free will either homey. LOL (threw that in there cuz your lol annoyed me).
@tendollar4ways - You, like many others, confuse God’s foreknowledge with predestination. They are two completely separate things. Just because God foreknows what we will choose, does not then conclude that we don’t have a choice. God merely foreknows the choice we will make. IF we would have chosen to make a different choice, God still would also have foreknown that choice. Tonight for dinner, I’m going to choose to eat a hamburger. I could choose to eat chicken also. Whatever I choose, God foreknows my choice. His foreknowing doesn’t take away the choice. People try to complcate this when it’s not necessary.
@tendollar4ways - I admit that the conflict of free will with predestination is a toughie. Lots of people have lots of explanations, but I don’t think there is any completely accurate way to understand it in human terms. I’ll just have to wait until I’m dead to find out.
The issue I take with that question is that it does nothing to disprove God. By its very nature, it acknowledges God. It only demonstrates that you don’t understand God and possibly dislike God, and that isn’t exactly a shocker. I don’t claim to have a complete understanding of God. No one does. There are mysteries that are beyond us.No matter what answer you’re looking for, it has no practical effect on your life, and you’re still accountable for your actions.
I like to ask questions. Too many. The most common answer I get is to accept Jesus and avoid worldly knowledge… such as, lean not on your own understanding. Then why go to school? Why study? why even bother with worldly materials? Then they’ll say there was no mention of dropping everything you own… then I respond with the parable of the man who wanted to follow Jesus and he answered “Let the dead bury the dead”
So many questions.
Slavery existed in the Old Testament, so did concubines. In the new testament, monogamy and the avoidance of mentioning slaves seems to be existent.
Then there is the fact that there were other books in the new testament, but for some scholarly reason, they were deleted.
It’s hard being a Christian when your mind is full of questions, but you’re supposed to quell it by forgetting about the world. /shrug. I’m still learning. Hope my questions to yuor questions intriguied more questions.
@LSP1 - Same Utter nonsense answer I always get. It IS predestination because God knows exactly what will happen. He chose to create me. He knows every last thing I will do and if I will go to Heaven or Hell. He caste the die…the coice is his ultimately because he could have chosen to not create me.
God knew…Chicken or Hamburger before he even created me. The choice was his, not mine.
I agree with grammarboy. Also let me say that God did not create evil. When God created the universe & the angels & humans, it was perfect according to the Bible. It was the free will of an angel (Lucifer) who decided that he wanted to be god. He attempted to overthrow him. He’s also the one who succeeded in getting Eve to disobey God. Hence, sin.
I don’t understand what is so hard to understand with free will. You all understand it, you just don’t want to apply it to anything having to do with Christian ideals or history. We can say that those who identify as other than heterosexual are free to love whom they wish, they just are not free to marry. That is limited free will. Which is what you’re attempting to do when you say that God should take away the free will of murderers and rapists. I wish those people didn’t do those things either or that they didn’t exist. I am extremely protective over infants & children (as comments here have brought up abuses inflicted on infants & children) as well. However, I understand fully that God didn’t create pedophilia & that it’s simply because of sickos who inflict their free will upon others.
@grammarboy - Wonderful, well thought out reply. I agree.
@Crono09 - Perhaps God could have made the world differently, but I’m not sure what purpose that hypothetical serves. The world is what it is, and the fact that you don’t know what God’s motives were doesn’t nullify His existence or goodness.
Natural disasters and such aren’t really a problem, either. Whether God allows them to happen or makes them happen isn’t even an issue. As I said, this is a matter of priorities and perspective. Suffering and death in this life are negligible in the big picture of things. The thing about being God is that He doesn’t have to conform to humanist standards.
@grammarboy - You are correct. It doesn’t disprove God. It mearly states that an Oniscient God and Free Will cannot co-exist. I neither like or dislike God…I just don’t see any evidence that he exists.
@grammarboy - And what about the baby? That baby is merely a pawn in God and Satan’s everlasting war? I would prefer that I, as a child, hadn’t been molested and alienated by the church I was an earnest member of. I would prefer not to pick up a newspaper and read story after story about the depraved indifference shown to the most vulnerable members of society.
Frankly, I prefer knowing that men have free will to choose their actions and that there is no supernatural being keeping score on either side. Hold men accountable for what they do. The existence of a God is irrelevant.
@tendollar4ways - If you don’t even believe that God exists, then why debate the nature of His existence? That’s like me having an argument with someone about whether unicorn meat tastes more like beef or chicken.
@tendollar4ways - Same Utter nonsense answer I always get.
It’s utter nonsense to you because you fail to comprehend it.
It IS predestination because God knows exactly what will happen.
lol! – Just as I already stated, you fail to recognize the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. I explained why this is false and a non-sequiter. God doesn’t predestine everything that happens. He foreknows everything that will happen.
[God knew...Chicken or Hamburger before he even created me. The choice was his, not mine.]
Wow. I said that God knew. But that doesn’t mean that his knowing takes away the choice. It’s like you have a mind block. We will always freely choose that which God foreknows we will choose.
@grammarboy - @LSP1 - @MyTwoCentss - If God is omni benevolent, omnipotent, can see all of time in a single
glance, and God created Satan/evil, then evil exists because of God.
Therefore, evil would not exist without God, thus God cannot be ALL
good.
How does it make sense to believe that God is perfectly
good/righteous/pious if you believe that God created Satan/Evil and was
capable of seeing the consequences of doing so before hand? I maintain
that God cannot be omni benevolent if God created evil in the first
place, and therefore that the traditional Christian/Muslim/Jewish view
of God is inconsistent.
@Prolixity_Split - The baby is a victim, just as you would say with or without God. God isn’t a magical blame catcher. People do horrible things to other people. That’s what evil is. I apologize on behalf of those who abused you, and I assure you that such things are not God’s will. He warned time and again against them, and those people will face His judgment. I can’t blame you for being cynical about it all after that, but keep in mind that people are not God, and even if they say they represent Him, they can be liars. *hugs*
@LSP1 - Comprehend is the wrong word. The correct word you should be using is Accept. No, I don’t accept your incoherent, illogical Presuppostions.
I prefer Grammerboys honesty to your arrogance any day of the week.
God knew, then God created, then it happens just as God knew. There is no room for MY anything. God made the choice. I am done cuz I know you are going to keep repeating the same semantical BS arguement over and over and over. It makes no sense, none. Calling it Foreknowledge, or predestination or a turd blossom doesn’t change anything….it is weak semantics.
@Kristenmomof3 - God didn’t create evil, only the possibility of it. Look at your own life. Surely, you’ve sinned. Did God make you do it? Did Satan make you do it? No, you chose it out of your own sinful desire. I chose it likewise.
@LSP1 - Ah, but if God is all-powerful and all-knowing, why has He chosen to create possibilities like rape and murder? Why is it that those concepts were introduced to man?
Free will can exist with limitations. We have free will within X and Y parameters. We see it modeled in the world as the justice system. Law-abiding citizens do not steal, rape, murder, maim or commit acts against another individual’s will. We, as a society, set those limits. People who operate outside of those limits are punished for their transgressions. You’re attempting to tell me that God could not set limits and still achieve the desired results of free will. It’s an unreasonable argument.
lol – Why should I skip it? Because you don’t
accept it? It makes perfect sense to me. If we’re forced to love
someone against our will, that is not love.
You should skip it because I clearly already recognized that it was the argument you would levy and that you should make your case for why free will must be limitless.
You see, God has given us free will because He didn’t want us to be forced to follow or love Him, according to Christianity. Setting a limit on our ability to choose actions to willfully harm others does not automatically mean that we must then love God. That’s not remotely a logical conclusion of being restricted in certain activities.
It only works for you because you believe that one is innately evil, if one chooses to not love God; because in the absence of God, there is only evil. Except that it’s simply not true. I am a good person. I actively work to not cause harm to others. I pursue a good life in which I limit my negative impact and maximize my good impact on the whole of the world wherever possible. I do all of that because I believe that every person has a right to exist unmolested. I am a lawful citizen of society. Does my agnosticism or agnostic atheism make me “evil” or “immoral”? No.
@grammarboy - In other words, you cannot explain why victims are allowed to be victimized, except as a result of limitless free will.
You are free to believe in God and follow Him with the whole of your heart and I am free to believe that an omnipotent, omniscient God is anything, but benevolent for allowing atrocities to be visited upon those incapable of defending themselves.
I didn’t seek you out to argue the point. I just stated that the quote this post features is one of the many reasons I cannot accept that a benevolent God exists.
@grammarboy - I think for the same reason Christians try and convert me or tell me the good word. When you couple this with the influence Christianty has in our society and politics….it is irresponsible to avoid addressing these assertions.
@grammarboy - if god exists and knows everything you are going to do before you are even born….do you even really have a choice. If he exists and knows that I am going to type this then I have to type this…I don’t have a choice…If I didn’t then that would make him wrong
Also about freewill what about this…..
Pharaoh…He didn’t have freewill…”God hardened his heart” the bible says… Exodus 7:3,13, 9:12, 10:1, 20,27, 11:10, 14:4,8
@MyTwoCentss - So… Why didn’t God smite Lucifer and put an end to evil and temptation?
@grammarboy - The problem I have with this argument is that it presumes the goodness of God. I’m challenging that presumption in the first place. It takes a pretty messed up idea of love to say that human lives are so negligible to God that he causes so much suffering and death to achieve some unknown ends when it is within his power to do otherwise. Suppose that an older kid named Joe beat me up every day and took my lunch money. You’re saying that Joe is good, so there must be a valid reason for him to be beating me up even I don’t know his motivations for doing so. I’m saying that the fact that Joe is beating me up is an indication that he isn’t good.
@tendollar4ways - Hmm… I understand the reason for Christians spreading the gospel; the “great commission” is commanded by God. If they’re not motivated by obedience, they’re motivated by love and concern for you. The classic example of this is the question, “If you saw a blind man walking toward a cliff, would you warn him?”
Granted, Christians may believe in God and try to follow, but that doesn’t mean we’re perfect by any means, so I can’t honestly claim that everyone’s motives are altruistic. There may be some self-righteous pricks who tell you what they believe to shame you and feel good about themselves because they’re not a lowly heathen like you. That kind of thinking is probably more common than I’d care to know, but it’s certainly not from God, and such people (keep your fingers crossed) grow up in time. Also, not everyone who claims to be a Christian is one; there are a lot of self-serving frauds out there, even people with ministries of their own.
Since God has no mandate for nonbelievers (or does, but it’s ignored), that’s not much of a motive for you. Caring for people, in your case, needn’t involve what they believe because if you don’t believe in God, it really makes no difference to you what they believe so long as they’re happy with it. I’d hate to assume a negative reason. That leaves politics.
Even though the government is secular, I agree with you that not everyone treats it as such, and thus other people’s beliefs can be important to you. I get why you’d want to have an understanding of people’s beliefs for this. For that matter, I can see why you’d want to debate. Reverse proselytization could gain you ground in supporting your agenda for society. I think there’s a better way to go, though. As I’m sure you’ve seen lots of times on Xanga, argument over core beliefs usually doesn’t change anyone’s mind, but it does make some people angry at you. You can get a lot further by espousing the benefits of secular government. I, for one, don’t believe in moral legislation. It’s something you can realistically convince some unshakable fundamentalists to believe.
@Kristenmomof3 - If God is omni benevolent, omnipotent, can see all of time in a single
glance, and God created Satan/evil, then evil exists because of God. Therefore, evil would not exist without God, thus God cannot be ALL
good.
Wrong. You’re makijng the same mistake that Epicurus made. You’re leaving out freewill. Evil exists because Lucifer and Adam freely chose to rebel against God.
How does it make sense to believe that God is perfectly
good/righteous/pious if you believe that God created Satan/Evil and was
capable of seeing the consequences of doing so before hand?
God’s righteousness has nothing to do with his foreknowledge and us making freewill choices.
@tendollar4ways - Comprehend is the wrong word. The correct
word you should be using is Accept. No, I don’t accept your incoherent,
illogical Presuppostions.
It’s both. You don’t comprehend or accept. You saying it’s incoherent and illogical doesn’t make it so. You seem to think it does though.
I prefer Grammerboys honesty to your arrogance any day of the week.
Ok, and of course you’re never arrogant are you? I apologize for coming across that way. It’s exremely frustrating for me that you’re confused about the difference and disconnect between foreknowledge, freewill, and predestination. Hey, believe what you want to believe.
God knew, then God created, then it happens just as God knew.
That doesn’t refute anything I said, In fact I agree with that.
There is no room for MY anything. God made the choice.
Now you’re wrong. God doesn’t make our choices just because he knows what we will choose. We make a choice and he knows what we will choose before we make it. You insist on a non-sequiter that because he knows before, that means we didn’t choose. That’s false.
I am done cuz I know you are going to keep
repeating the same semantical BS arguement over and over and over. It
makes no sense, none.
Good. I’m done too.
The example of the pharoah in that passage is actually one I considered using in my first comment. That shows God using an evil man doing evil to suit His purposes. The purpose in this case, though, is not relevant to the topic at hand. It does demonstrate a clear example of free will and the distinction between God’s foreknowledge and predestination (for lack of better terms). If the pharoah had not had free will, God would not have needed to actively interfere and harden his heart; things would have just gone according to schedule. Also, God’s interference indicates that He already knew the pharoah would have chosen otherwise without it. Foreknowledge, therefore, is different from predestination, by which God made things happen according to His plan anyway.
Some people would ask whether it’s fair for God to hold the pharoah accountable for his actions in this case. Is it? Did He? I don’t know. That’s between the two of them. God certainly has more wisdom to judge such things than I do, and for that matter, He has every right to do as He likes. Who am I to tell God what’s fair or what to do?
@Crono09 - I don’t have to presume the goodness of God. I have firsthand experience. You have less reason to assume that God is not good. If you merely don’t understand how it all fits together, the answers are easily found in the Bible.
@Prolixity_Split -Ah, but if God is all-powerful and
all-knowing, why has He chosen to create possibilities like rape and
murder? Why is it that those concepts were introduced to man?
Maybe I’m wrong but I thought we went over this. Because God made us with freewill and not as puppets. If we truly have freewill, we have it to choose to do “both” good and bad.
Free will can exist with limitations.
That’s not freewill then. Because you don’t like freewill, you want to re-define it.
We have free will within X and Y parameters. We see it modeled in the world as the justice system.
The justice system hasn’t and doesn’t keep people from choosing to kill and rape.
Law-abiding citizens do not steal, rape, murder, maim or commit acts against another individual’s will.
They choose not to do that.
We, as a society, set those limits. People who operate outside of those limits are punished for their transgressions.
Just like God will do on judgment day.
in the absence of God, there is only evil. Except that it’s simply not true. I am a good person.
I never said that. If God doesn’t exist, goodness can still exist in a relative way. If God does exist, you may have some good qualities but your sins outweigh your goodness. But to you they don’t because you want to justify that in your eyes, you’re good and haven’t sinned against God.
I actively work to not cause harm to others.
I pursue a good life in which I limit my negative impact and maximize
my good impact on the whole of the world wherever possible.
That’s commendable, but if God exists, those good things don’t magically erase and cover up your sins.
@LSP1 -
Because God made us with freewill and not as puppets. If we truly have freewill, we have it to choose to do “both” good and bad.
So, only those acts that physically or emotionally harm a person irreparably are “bad”? You can’t break laws, or God’s rules, without resorting to the kind of depravity that leaves one devastated for a majority of their lifetime, or dead?
The point of bringing up the justice system is that we place limitations in our society as to what is and is not acceptable behavior. God could have precluded the need for some of that by preventing the inclusion of certain acts. We would still have free will to choose our actions from all of the available actions. That would be true free will. But God didn’t do that. He allowed Lucifer to rebel and introduce progressively more evil concepts into the world. Why? You can, after all, be bad without being unspeakably evil.
If you can accept that people who choose to live without God can be good people, albeit sinners, why is it so far-fetched to accept that sin does not have to include murder or rape?
@grammarboy - What about someone whose firsthand experience differs from yours? How is your experience more valid than theirs? If these answers are so easily found in the Bible, why do so many people debate over its meaning?
I am quite familiar with the Bible, which is exactly why I ask these questions. I actually do believe in God, although I have many doubts. Matters like these are precisely the reason why I have doubts. After years of thinking about this, I have since concluded that if God does exist, he cannot be both omniscient and omni-benevolent: an all-loving god would prevent much of the suffering the world if it were within his power, and an omnipotent god who allows this much suffering cannot be good. I cannot have faith in a god who inflicts or even allows such much pain the world, so if God does exist, he is not omnipotent.
@Crono09 - I’d be glad to meet this person whose experience differs and hear what (s)he has to say. As for the Bible, if you’re looking for it to say that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omni-benevolent, you don’t need to look hard. There are lots of places that say all of these things explicitly, besides all the anecdotal evidence and implied statements.
It’s clear to me that these are all true. I apologize that I’m not able to give you a more satisfying answer. As I said at the beginning of all of this, I’m not a theologian. I’m not a scholar. I’m just doing my best to help out.
I understand the difficulty of struggling with doubts and things that don’t seem to add up, but it’s better to ask God for wisdom and understanding than to draw your own conflicting conclusions and resign yourself to confusion. I’ll pray for you.
@Prolixity_Split -So, only those acts that physically or
emotionally harm a person irreparably are “bad”? You can’t break laws,
or God’s rules, without resorting to the kind of depravity that leaves
one devastated for a majority of their lifetime, or dead?
That’s a red herring. I didn’t say that couldn’t happen. I said that God chose to create us with freewill. You keep wanting to redefine something as freewill which isn’t freewill.
The point of bringing up the justice system
is that we place limitations in our society as to what is and is not
acceptable behavior.
But those limitations do not keep us from using our freewill to commit evil crimes. God also gave limitations but he doesn’t force us to obey them.
God could have precluded the need for some of that by preventing the inclusion of certain acts.
We’re just going in circles. Yes, if God wanted to take away our freewill, he could have done that.
We would still have free will to choose our actions from all of the available actions.
Again with your redefinitions. That is not freewill.
That would be true free will.
*sigh* – No it wouldn’t.
He allowed Lucifer to rebel and introduce
progressively more evil concepts into the world. Why? You can, after
all, be bad without being unspeakably evil.
Broken record. That’s not freewill. True freewill is the freedom to do both unspeakable evil and great acts of love.
If you can accept that people who choose to
live without God can be good people, albeit sinners, why is it so
far-fetched to accept that sin does not have to include murder or rape?
?? – Not exactly sure what you mean. I think you’re going back to the freewill thing again which I’ve already covered. If we don’t have the freewill to commit murder or rape, then we don’t have freewill. There’s no freewill to commit those things. If it’s something else, then I’m not really sure what you’re asking.
Ah, the “problem of pain”. The argument proposed draws the wrong conclusions. God could be both willing and able but in His love, still permit it because He wants us to have the freedom to choose. God is loving but He is also just. If a judge had a person in his courtroom guilty of premeditated murder and there was no question of guilt and the defendant threw himself at the mercy of the court and the judge then told him all was forgiven and let him walk, that judge would not be loving. That judge would be evil. That judge would be corrupt and would certainly lose his job and all respect. In the same manner, were God to intervene and not allow consequences for wrongdoing, then He would be unworthy of being a judge, let along of being God. God is just and so He allows it but He is loving and merciful and so He offers us forgiveness by the only means that allows His justice to be served and that is through the sacrifice of Himself on our behalf. If this answer is inadequate, feel free to probe further.
Oh, I remember this question from my college philosophy class. This question literally started fistfights among my classmates.
My answer to this is God is both willing AND able but He will not do so if it’s not part of His plan.
I would highly encourage both you and @BenelliMan to pick up a copy of Rob Bell’s book “Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith.” He says in the book that Christianity leaves room for doubts and questions because if we knew/understood it all, we wouldn’t be human. We’d be God. It’s totally fine to ask questions of your faith and to have doubts.
Here’s an excerpt: “A Christian doesn’t avoid the questions; a Christian embraces them. In fact, to truly pursue the living God, we have to see the *need* for questions. Questions are not scary. What is scary is when people don’t have any. What is tragic is faith that has no room for them.”
(Usually I am incredibly skeptical of Christian books but Rob Bell is an awesome author! I’m currently reading my third book by him. If you hate the book I promise I’ll eat my keyboard!)
@LSP1 - If a thing does not exist, it cannot be included in a particular ideology. If rape and murder did not exist, then the concept of free will would be complete without those ideas. I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I will not persuade you and you will not persuade me.
I think people have a tendency to look on this type of discussion as if it must be a battle to the bitter end, as if I am telling you that you are wrong in what you believe. I’m not. I’m proposing an idea that could also be true. I recognize your right to believe what you do. I am sad that you cannot consider any other possibility.
@LovesTwo - SOLD! I’m gonna look for that book! Hopefully, it’s not crap like “The purpose driven life”
@Prolixity_Split - Because that would be hypocritical. He gave us, angels, etc all free will. He isn’t going to take it back because we chose wrong.
Just like if Joe has a huge crush on Jane & believes that he is in love with her. So he approaches her & asks her to be in a relationship with him.
Well, following God’s example she can reject him.
If we go with what you’re saying (smite Lucifer because he rejected God & became evil), then that would give Joe the right to then hold a gun to Jane’s head and ask Jane once again to be in a relationship with him. If she rejects him then he will “smite” her with his gun.
Is it really love if you have no choice? If you’re forced to always choose God?
God knew that we couldn’t fully love Him if we had no choice. So he gave us a choice.
As far as those saying that if God exists outside of time & sees all because of this – that we don’t have free will.
That’s silly. That’s like saying that because I’ve seen a movie a hundred times & I know everything that will happen in the movie – that the writers never had free will to write or not write the script or that they had no free will of how to write it. It’s like saying that the actors had no free will while shooting the movie to ad lib or do things a little differently.
You see, you DO have free will while you’re in the moment. Just because that moment is gone & over with & God had already “seen the movie” (so to speak) doesn’t mean that you didn’t have the free will to do whatever while you were in the moment.
@MyTwoCentss - What source tells you that angels had free will?
Man was made in God’s own image, meaning that man has free will. Angels, according to Psalms 103:20-21, were created to do God’s will. I know of no source that explicitly states that angels also have free will. Are you inferring that angels must have free will because Lucifer rebelled?
Also, how would it be hypocritical for God to smite an angel for going against His will when he so freely smote humans who did so in the Old Testament?
That is NOT a parallel example, unless you’re claiming that we ARE God and have the right to extinguish another’s life. God punished Lucifer for the sin of pride, didn’t he? Why couldn’t he have made that punishment more absolute?
@Prolixity_Split - If a thing does not exist, it cannot be
included in a particular ideology. If rape and murder did not exist,
then the concept of free will would be complete without those ideas.
You’re still avoiding freewill. You just keep taking different stabs at trying to redefine it with your own analogies which all are not freewill. The fact is that with freewill, rape and murder do exist. If we have no choice to murder, then that’s not freewill.
I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. I will not persuade you and you will not persuade me.
Yes, agreed.
I think people have a tendency to look on
this type of discussion as if it must be a battle to the bitter end, as
if I am telling you that you are wrong in what you believe. I’m not.
Thanks. I appreciate that.
I’m proposing an idea that could also be true.
Well. I don’t think it can be true and have also have true freewill exist.
I recognize your right to believe what you do. I am sad that you cannot consider any other possibility.
I recognize your right also. There are other possibilities, but if God exists, which I believe he does, then I believe Epicurus is wrong as I’ve explained. And what you proposed about God existing and him not allowing rape or murder obviously isn’t true because rape and murder do exist. So I don’t believe that’s possible. So either God exists and has given us freewill to do both good and bad, including rape and murder, or he doesn’t exist and we still have rape and murder. Thanks for the discussion.
@MyTwoCentss -
As far as those saying that if God exists outside of time & sees all because of this – that we don’t have free will.
That’s
silly. That’s like saying that because I’ve seen a movie a hundred
times & I know everything that will happen in the movie – that the
writers never had free will to write or not write the script or that
they had no free will of how to write it. It’s like saying that the
actors had no free will while shooting the movie to ad lib or do things a
little differently.
You see, you DO have free will while you’re
in the moment. Just because that moment is gone & over with &
God had already “seen the movie” (so to speak) doesn’t mean that you
didn’t have the free will to do whatever while you were in the moment.
Excellent explanation. I like that.
@LSP1 - Thank you. My mom of all people explained it to me this way when I was struggling with this concept several years ago. It makes absolute perfect sense & I completely agree with it as well.
@MyTwoCentss - The concept is very simple to me. I don’t understand why so many people can’t comprehend it. But that’s a great explanation. I’ll have to remember it.
@LSP1 - I know I should quit….but…
Now you’re wrong. God doesn’t make our choices just because he knows what we will choose. We make a choice and he knows what we will choose before we make it. You insist on a non-sequiter that because he knows before, that means we didn’t choose. That’s false.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that HE created me. I didn’t create me. If I created me, this would make sense. The fact that he created me AND knew exactly what I would do, every last thing…the choice was his, not mine. Choice is only illusionary to me because fatalism exists the second God makes his decision. I know You neither comprehend or accept this.
BTW…there is a way around this and it is to say we cannot understand God and all that Jazz, and this beyond logic and reason. I think you are extremely arrogant because you claim to be AS God and understand as he does this realm beyond logic and reason claiming I am beneath your Godlike comprehention.
We are both humans, limited. What you state is plainly illogical and contradictory. You ain’t God homey.
@BenelliMan - I actually did not read The Purpose-Driven Life so I can’t compare the two. I really do hope you like Velvet Elvis, though. If you don’t, let me know and I’ll eat my keyboard (deep fried with a little powdered sugar)! Just a warning – Rob Bell will make you think, so if you don’t want to think then you should probably pass on the book.
I tried to get back to you before now but my computer fritzed and I had to wait on the cable man to come out. In answer to your question, or an attempt at answering your question, is that some things have no real answer or at least we don’t know it yet. You are not alone in your question, I think all Christians have it shortly before or shortly after they decide to become a Christian. I have heard several theories, one being, yes, God did create evil as a true and false quiz to see if we are worthy of salvation. A learning experience. Pretend you are 8 and you have a new bike. God tells you not to ride down that rocky road without using the handlebars, he doesn’t tell you why, he just says “Don’t”. Being a normal 8 year old you think you are good enough riding without using your hands so you ignore instructions and try it anyway. Naturally you fall. Now that road was put there for an entirely different reason, maybe so cars with their wider tires could go down it without getting stuck in mud. That means the road was good, the men that laid the gravel was good, but the 8 year old didn’t use the road for what was good but something for which it was not meant. Sometimes that which seems evil was not intended to be used the way we do, (free will) so we learn from our mistakes. Sometimes we learn from watching others make that mistake. Like with our parents here on earth, sometimes they say ”Don’t do it” without explanation, some times they do explain and we don’t listen. As in the case of Eve to whom God said, “If you eat of that tree you will surely die. I guess he thought that would be enough without explaning that it also invites sin into a sinless world. If he said that, her not knowing of sin, do you think that would have made any difference?
Life is not perfect, it wasn’t meant to be, this is not our final destination. This example may be too short to make sense, but I don’t want to write a blog on your blog. If you wish to discuss it further…message me.
I am here living a learning lesson and I hope that I have learned it well and do not have to do this again the next time around. If God took care of everything, then how would any of learn and I am talking about whatever God you believe in or don’t believe in.
@tendollar4ways - You seem to be ignoring the fact that HE created me.
I’m not ignoring that at all. I acknowledge that. I never denied that in any of my comments. I kept telling you I believe in God’s foreknowledge. I know that he knew about everything before he even created the world. But the problem is that you then erroneously make false conclusions based upon that.
The fact that he created me AND knew exactly what I would do, every last thing…the choice was his, not mine.
This again, is where you make a non-sequiter. Yes he created and “knew” everything you would do, but it’s false to then conclude that “because” he knew, therefore he makes all our choices and doesn’t allow us to make choices.
Choice is only illusionary to me because
fatalism exists the second God makes his decision. I know You neither
comprehend or accept this.
I totally understand fatalism but that’s a red herring. It’s not what I believe. Maybe others like yourself believe it, but I don’t. And it doesn’t apply to what I believe. It applies to what you believe.
BTW…there is a way around this and it is to say we cannot understand God and all that Jazz, and this beyond logic and reason.
Actually, that has nothing to do with this discussion. I believe it’s true that we cannot fully understand God, but that’s not relevant to this discussion you and I are having. Did you read @MyTwoCentss - comment giving her/his explanation on this?
I think you are extremely arrogant because
you claim to be AS God and understand as he does this realm beyond logic
and reason claiming I am beneath your Godlike comprehention.
C’mon. That’s completely false. I acknowledge I could have come across as arrogant but not for those reasons. I never claimed to be as God and understand as he does. Yes, I believe you have failed to comprehend and/or accept what I’ve said. I’m as frustrated as you are. You believe I’m wrong and I believe you’re wrong. I feel like ( I could be wrong) you heard somebody once say that if God knows everything that happens, then we can’t have freewill. And you just accepted that as being true. It may sound like logic to you, but in my opinion it’s false. The bottom line is that we’re not going to get anywhere on this. Thanks Homey!
@LSP1 - Whatever. You are the one that believes in this invisible man in the sky that knows everything, creates everything, controls everything yet somehow at the very same time gives up control even though he knows what the outcome of giving up that control will be and then blames and punnishing those who he knew would fail him before he ever gave up control with eternal damnation forever.
Yea, I am the beleiver and you are the rational weilder of sound logic and reason. I just beleive on blind faith and you are based in reality.
You want your cake and eat it too. You want faith to be reason and still faith at the same time. You are patronising too btw.
@tendollar4ways - Whatever.
That’s what I say.
You are the one that believes in
this invisible man in the sky that knows everything, creates
everything, controls everything yet somehow at the very same time gives
up control even though he knows what the outcome of giving up that
control will be and then blames and punnishing those who he knew would
fail him before he ever gave up control with eternal damnation forever.
Nice straw man. I’ve stated that I don’t believe God controls everything. If he did then we wouldn’t have freewill.
You want your cake and eat it too. You want faith to be reason and still faith at the same time. You are patronising too btw.
Hoo-boy. Yet another red herring. We’re not debating whether God exists. You must be thinking of a discussion you had with someone else.
@LSP1 - I feel like ( I could be wrong) you heard somebody once say that if God knows everything that happens, then we can’t have freewill.
Um, no. That would be you and what you said and who I am discussing this with.
God doesn’t control it even though he knows exactly what will happen if he does it and chooses to do it.
Would love to see you try to sell this to a judge after you buy gun and bullets, load the bullets, point it at someone and shoot them to death. The bullet had free will!!! It COULD have missed. It is the bullets fault your honor.
Yea…you are brilliant dude. HAHA….just thought of it…the Bullet actually could have missed. Whatever God chose to do (us) had not choice whatsoever.
@tendollar4ways -
LSP1 - I feel like ( I could be wrong)
you heard somebody once say that if God knows everything that happens,
then we can’t have freewill.
[Um, no. That would be you and what you said and who I am discussing this with]
What are you talking about? I never said that. You said it and that’s what I’m arguing against. Are you ok?
[God doesn't control it even though he knows exactly what will happen if he does it and chooses to do it.]
This is what you said – “Whatever. You are the one that believes in
this invisible man in the sky that knows everything, creates
everything, controls everything “
You said it, not me. I don’t know where you’re going with this by all these false statements attributed to me. I’m worried about you. Are you sure you’re ok?
@LSP1 - Sorry, I was in a hurry. Was at work, Computer email a major pain in the ass, had to 100 things to do and leave plus I was highly irriated by your condesending, dickish comment. My comment was 1/2 baked and very poorly organised…I read it now and wish I had just waited till today.
Let me try this again now that I have more time…
I feel like ( I could be wrong) you heard somebody once say that if God knows everything that happens, then we can’t have freewill. And you just accepted that as being true.
I have presented to you WHY I find this Free Will / Omniscience to be incompatible. I have given you several examples and tried to explain why I think this is so. You don’t understand or accept it but you should have been able to deduce that it wasn’t something I just accepted because I heard Richard Dawkins say it on TV one day. The assertion is that I am just going on faith and you superior logical deduction. This was why I decided to argue as you had chose to do and call your position names. (invisible man in the sky). You couple this with your assertion I am just too stupid to understand your assertion…what appears to me to be an impossibilty and illogical…this is very irritating.
I think my Gun example is a good at showing how your assertions of Free Will and Omniscience being compatible is impossible.
You have a Gun. You know how a gun works and that it it is loaded. You know what will happen if you point it at someone and pull the trigger. You know that a bullet will come out of it, that it will peirce the persons skin. (This is like God’s Omniscience and his choice….create us or not create us). You pull the trigger and the person you shot dies.
What you appear to be trying to sell me is that it is the bullet is to blame. The fact that you held the gun, pointed the gun and pulled the trigger and KNEW exactly what would happen is of no consequence because the bullet had free will.
The Judge probably isn’t going to buy this defense. I doubt the jury will be swayed by you claiming superior logical understanding and will probably become annoyed when you claim they are just to stupid to understand the Free Will you gave to the Bullet.
@tendollar4ways - No problem about you being at work. Thanks for replying back even though you and I both know this is going nowhere. We both believe we’re right. I don’t believe the gun example was good which is why I didn’t even respond to it. All that does is show your position which I believe is false. It doesn’t refute what I’m saying. The reason it fails is because the bullet has no freewill. It’s at the mercy of the person pulling the trigger. I don’t believe we’re at God’s mercy in all that we do. He allows us to make our own choices. I’m tired of even trying anymore to explain this to you. You’re just stuck on freewill being impossible because God knows beforehand what will happen. That may appear to be logical at first glance until you really think all the possibilities through. Freewill IS possible even though God knows beforehand what we will do.
Listen, you’re probably a nice guy and if we met in real life, we might even like each other. But this conversation on here with you is blah………
You said that I’m illogical and a few other things. Earlier you also said that you were done talking to me. If I’m illogical and you said you were done talking to me and then come back to talk to me some more, what does that say about you? If you want the last word, have at it homey.
@LSP1 - Yes, I should have never gotten into this because this is how it has gone just about everytime. BTW..no, I don’t see any way the Bullet can be given free will if God 1. choses to shoot it 2. knows exactly where it will end up. Impossible.
@tendollar4ways - Just because he knows where our decisions when we make them will land us doesn’t mean we lack freewill. It just means he knows our hearts. He knows what we will choose before we even have the option presented in present terms. That’s like saying someone watching a child run towards water, because he knows the child will jump in, has removed the child’s freewill. Make sense? The child still has freewill. Understand?
@akarui_mitsukai - You are just repeating the same stuff LSP1 has said and NO it makes absolutely no sense.
Let look at your analogy which is much like the Bullet analogy I gave to LSP1.
You are a parent and you are holding your child by a river. You KNOW 100% if you set that child down he run will jump in the river and be swept away and drown. You know the child likes to swim and will jump in any pool or lake or ocean or river if he isn’t restrained.
The choice is thus yours and the same as God’s of create us or don’t. Hold the child so he doesn’t go into the water or set him down and he will run and jump into the water and drown.
Calling what the child will do Free Will is an illusion. You know what the child will do so the choice is ultimately yours as it is with God and us.
I think if you do let your kid down and you tell the Judge you knew he would jump into the river and kill himself but you wanted to give him free will would land you in Jail. Where you would belong.
Understand?