April 19, 2012
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Good without god?
Theists charge that goodness and morality are the domain of the believer. They assert that, without their deity, it’s impossible to be “good” or to commit moral acts.
Morality is a product of human evolution. As the most socialized animal on earth, we have an overall better chance of survival through cooperation than doing everything on our own. Therefore, morality, including sympathy, love and the will to do good etc become wired to our brains throughout the ages.
Do you think Christians only do good because they want eternal reward?
It is the myth that religious belief is somehow necessary for morality that is providing the life support for religion in many Western societies, long after we should have been reaching for the embalming fluid.
“Good people do good things, evil people do evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ~Steven Weinberg
Atheists are good for goodness sake. Atheists don’t rely on threats of eternal punishment to be good people. It’s likely that most religious believers have the same motivation as atheists for being good to their fellow individuals. If this is difficult to understand, consider how you might act without a belief in god or gods. Would you act immorally? More than likely not. Lacking belief in a god doesn’t make someone stop being good to their fellow man.
Do you think god is needed for a person to be good? Which god? Yahweh? Allah? Thor? Wotan? Zeus? Isis? Osiris? Loki? Odin? Mithra? Lolth? Aphrodite? Poseidon? Cronos? Horus? Beddru? Krishna? Zarathustra? Baal? Dagon? Dionysus? Enki? Gaia? Helios? Hermes? Marduk? Quetzalcoatl? Ra? Seti? Vishnu? Shiva? Xenu? Akuma? Raiden? Gekka? Bumba? Eshu? Jupiter? Romulus? Ilia? Venus? Abaangui? Ewah? Imhotep? Periboriwa? Dagda? Ishtar? Baldur? Tyr? Quetzalcoatl? Ixchel? Qi-Lin? Dievas? Adonis? Xanthus? Kali? Akka? Anubis? Sif? Mercury? Juno? Brahma? Frith? Eric Clapton? Or one of tens of thousands of others?
Here are the links to find out more and make your donation:
Charity Water: http://mycharitywater.org/thethinkingatheist
Responsible Charity: http://www.razoo.com/story/Thethinkingatheist
Thoughts? Comments?
Comments (73)
That is one of the arguments I get sick of hearing. People act that because someone doesn’t have a religion that they are the equivalent of Bin Laden or Hitler. Many conservative Christians tend to denounce Timothy McVeigh, saying that he is not the representation of Christianity, yet never hesitate to group all Muslims into the same group of extremists that flew the planes into the Twin Towers. Morality, as you mentioned, is a human trait, from compassion for their fellow humans. You do not need a religion to tell you that.
Couldn’t agree more. And hell yeah Clapton…God material for sure. =)
Hmmm…. reckon I’ve gotta go against the grain, here. I started a Christian, moved on to a Taoist, a Buddhist, and a Wiccan. Happily, I’m back to square one. (A Christian) I think Forrest Gump says it best for me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=U039-PWcE18&NR=1
It sad when folks take things out of context.Yes,people can be good and do good things apart from God but its good in their eyes.God see’s the heart of a deed done,we can’t see motives and YES humans always have motives.And the so called Christian who does good deeds because they think they get some reward,they have know clue what Christianity is.Christ is the only TRUE good person from the human race because He was God in the flesh.God see’s the imputed life of Christ in the Christian,not whatever good deeds he may have done,thats what saves him.Man cannot add to his salvation what God completely and graciously gave on our behalf.The true statement is what iis said in the Bible.Man’s goodness is as filthy rags before God without Christ’s righteousness imputed.One ill thought of the heart ruins the whole body.Ever notice when man DOES to good,what does he do?He boasts about it and wants to be praised for it.he gets his praise then here for human’s but not from God.Seek to please God and you do what is right by man.
I think you’re misunderstanding the argument Christians are making. A while ago I tried to make the argument a bit clearer: Good Without God: The Real Debate(s).
It’s precisely analagous to how Arminians (Christians who believe in free will) argue with Calvinists (who deny human free will and believe God picked in advance who would become a Christian). Arminians argue that Calvinism undermines evangelism. I mean, why go out and share the gospel if God decided in advance who will get saved and they will get saved whether I do anything or not? Calvinists respond that many Calvinists do evangelize! Some of the most successful evangelists have been Calvinists!
But Calvinists who respond that way are misunderstanding the argument. Whether or not Calvinists do in fact evangelize, it doesn’t seem that Calvinism as a belief system provides a good motivation to evangelize. That’s what Christians allege about atheism. Not that atheists are bad people, but that atheism as a belief system does not provide a coherent logical basis for the morality that atheists live by.
You are generalizing theists. There are certainly theists/christians who do believe you can be moral without God.
Straw argument.
/thread
I really like that video. You should make a blog with the video as a centerpiece.
good post for us to all think on.
i definitely think atheists are capable of being good without believing/being saved. mark and you and barry are proof of that.
speakng only for myself, i don’t consider the afterlife when making decisions. ii am sure at times i’ve thought about it, but mostly i do good b/c i feel compassion or empathy towards somebody, or sometimes i feel God wants me to even when i dont feel it/don’t want to — and so i will continue to do so —more often than not i feel tremendous peace and the feelings follow.
but i recognize that i did very good things, selflessly before i was saved also. there were many times i was moved to compassion before knowing Jesus also. so i defintely hear you here. great post, sis!
lame, out of context, typical atheist whining.
I agree about the social factor.
@laytexduckie is a wise man. I agree that morality is linked to an individuals character, not there religion. I know atheist who are morally just people and I know religious people who do all the wrong they possibly can only to ”repent” on their day of worship. At the end of the day treating others like you want to be treated does require belief. Not in any deity persay, but the belief that you genuinely want to be a good person. Excellent post ^_^
Peace and Love
@diditdreaming – I rec’d not because I was mentioned (thanks, tehe), but because what you said at the end was spot on.
Theists charge that goodness and morality are the domain of the believer. They assert that, without their deity, it’s impossible to be “good” or to commit moral acts.
I don’t completely agree with that. We can do good moral acts as both theists and atheists, but going by the bible’s definition of good, Jesus said there’s only one that is good and that is God. His definition of good means perfect, without sin.
Do you think Christians only do good because they want eternal reward?
No, I do good because I like to help people regardless of God giving me a reward.
@stuartandabby - I agree it’s a straw man.
OK without God, Unbearable without DOG.
@musterion99 - No, I do good because I like to help people regardless of God giving me a reward
That’s real good. Me, I like getting treats, I find them very motivational for doing all the good I do, but yelling at me works too, proven by the fact that I had to pick up all my own paper plates that I left laying around today.
@NewDog2 - I’m sure Diva motivates you with all kinds of treats.
Brahma? Frith? Eric Clapton? who is frith? My wife likes brahma, I like clapton.
@Composing_Life - Interestin when you say someone elses blog is “out of context.” Out of context to WHAT? Your context? Why does anybody care what your context is in the context of a blog that ain’t your blog?
@Somefishytales - Are you the same guy as composing life now too? Because “out of context” is what he said, and it’s a odd thing to say about somebody elses blog.
what context? Both of you, or if it’s just you goofygrampy, which ever, what context is she out of?
@NewDog2 - the context of referring to “without their deity, it’s impossible to be “good” or to commit moral acts.” that is a false belief used by people who do not know that the bible actually said “without god, it is impossible to PLEASE god”. also, “i can do no good thing without the spirit of god in me.” that means simply that without god, we can be “good” citizens, but that is not good enough to save us. if all we had to do was live a morally good life, then that makes jesus’ death on the cross irrelevant.
@Composing_Life - That’s not what the word context means.
You’re grampy too, right? Lots a new accounts lately
@Somefishytales - Out of context huh? Your comment just proved her point.
@NewDog2 - Fred Frith (born 17 February 1949) is an English multi-instrumentalist, composer and improvisor.
THIS BLOG HAS APPARENTLY BEEN CENSORED FROM MAIN PAGE.
Whose afraid of what? Who is supressing free speech?
@musterion99 - certain days the main treat I motivate him with is
— leaving him alone to play with his toys.
It’s a powerful treat for him, when he’s not mad about something. He’s rarely mad about anything on xanga but today he is eyikes.
@Somefishytales - @Composing_Life -
FIRST:
Dog is right to note that the stuff you’re saying isn’t about the context of this blog, he’s correct to confront you on your “this is out of context” statement.
Your “this is out of context” statement literally makes no sense. - it’s improper to even discuss the context of this blog per se, you have to be “taking something” before you can “take something out of context” and she’s not taking anything.
there’s nothing for her to put in a context, it’s all her stuff.
@Somefishytales -
I’ll add to that, for you grampy, in case you’re not the same dude and y’all equally fail to make sense, to you I have to saay that the stuff you’re saying? Is this kinda like speaking in toungues? Because it sounds like UTTER GOBBEDLY GOOK, it barely sounds like English. The words are english words, but the way you’ve laced them together just reads like a a random mish mash of words. It makes ZERO sense to me and I’m not a stupid person.
Totally agree with you that morality is a product of human evolution rather than belief in some good or other. Heck I’ve seen religions call blattantly negative acts like torture, discrimination, mass murder, slavery, misogyny, war… ect good when any rational society would call those acts flat evil. If anything, I think religion messes up a person’s ability to tell right from wrong. Good post, btw!
@DivaJyoti - I know right. 8 recs and it is not on most rec’d
@Kristenmomof3 - it should be on BOTH front pages, the main page and the rec page, it’s had more attention then most any blog today.
@Ampbreia - right, it could actually easily be argued that there’s a reverse correlation, but she’s not even taking it that far, and still people come out defensive.
well, the defensive people make no sense.
seems to be the trend today, in politics too. just make no fucking sense and hope for the best
doing good out of fear as if you have the gun of eternity pointed at your head then bragging about the good you do as a justification for your righteousness is childish at best. i’m not saying all religious people do this but there are plenty who do. what is important is knowing and understanding why something is good and why something creates value in society — or doesn’t. i often use this example. it’s fine to scold a child who tries to run out into traffic. he or she doesn’t know any better and hopefully he or she won’t attempt it again out of fear of another scolding but at some point the child has to grow up to understand WHY it’s dangerous to run out into traffic.
from another angle some of the greatest philosophers in our history, people who explained good vs. evil were not religious and lived long before the birth of many religions.
@NewDog2 - Absolutely true Dog.
@NewDog2 - @misuriver - @DivaJyoti - I did not mean she was out of context.I’ll have to read read what I wrote.I wrote it off the top of my head in a hurry before I left out to inspect this morning.I say stuff that may not make since when I do that.Just got in and the wife is hungry and doesn’t feel like cooking so I may have to go grab burgers or something.I’ll recomment later this evening.
@Somefishytales - well THAT made perfect sense, LOL. And you were in a hurry, imagine.
There is a lot of good things. But we have put a value on material stuff and even spiritual stuff and start to make things complicated. A filthy rag is not a bad thing when washed. How dare someone label stuff filthy and then make a person with good sayings and a healing touch an ideal?
More likely folks will have a healthy and prosperous life due to good environment and stuff their groups provide. The society I have lived in has a culture that shows me how to behave and punishes folks in some really extreme examples and some really petty examples. However it is very hard to prove direct actions by G-d for any of the good or bad things that happen. The preachers are like the folks that yell and scream on the corner but easily ignored and not of very much influence.
@Somefishytales - Yes you are just above my post and your life is more influenced not by G-d but external stuff that does not point to G-d. Thanks for proving my point.
The term I like best was from a monk friend of mine. Spiritual Materialism – doing good because it gets you something, respect, glory, or a sense of self. I wish I could say I was selfless, but I at least try to steer clear of “spiritual materialism”.
All righteousness is filthy rags. Only Christ can cover that up and make us righteous in God’s eyes.
SirNickDon’s response pretty much covers it for me.
“They assert that, without their deity, it’s impossible to be “good” or to commit moral acts.”
As a Christian, I don’t assert this at all. I know non-Christians who do moral acts all the time. That’s not the contention. The contention is whether a certain belief system provides a basis for doing moral acts, not whether or not people do them. I agree with what @sirnickdon said
@NewDog2 - Dude,I have no idea who composinglife is and they don’t even sound like me at all LOL.I guess I deserve it though for making so many accounts the last few months.Nope,this is it for me.If I drop this one,I’m gone for good this time.But reading what @Composing_Life - said in their reply to you I have to agree with them.Why to yall have such a hard time with a God that is perfectly good and is so perfectly good that He uses what is perfectly evil to bring good.
@PPhilip - I have no clue what you are getting at with that comment to me.
@DivaJyoti - When I left this morning I started thinking maybe “out of context” was the incorrect term to use and I wasn’t meaning it as in Kristen was taking something out of context.I was meaning what people think of as good in reguard to man’s goodness as opposed to God’s goodness.They are totally different.
I pretty much agree with everything else I wrote but it IS loaded with typo’s,its my trademark.
Someday maybe I’ll post some thoughts on this.It would be centered more on God’s perfect goodness and satan’s perfect evilness LOL.God can do no evil and satan can do no good,but God can use satan’s evil for good but unfortunately God gets blamed for satan’s evil and not the good He bring FROM satan’s evil.Hahahaha,but that was clear as mud huh? 
Anyway,interesting discussion,and I was not rude at all in my discussion,but I sure was pounced on LOL. Oh well.
@Somefishytales - I was meaning what people think of as good in reguard to man’s goodness as opposed to God’s goodness.
you should lose the word ‘context’ – find a different word. just a friendly suggestion! you don’t want to detract from your message, right?
I didn’t mean typos, my writing is riddled with typos and misspellings. I think I figured out the problem…
I “don’t speak evangelical.’ LOL but it really is a language all it’s own when you think about it, I bet you I could roll off 4 or 5 paragraps about my spiritual views that would leave you going…
I try not to do it on the blogs of non (whatever I am) types though (which is almost everyone). I try to just speak – sectarian. HAHAHAHAHA!
hiccup, that was fuckin hilarious.
@DivaJyoti - Alison,I will be the first to admit I’m not a smart man at all.I hated school and taking classes I knew would never be of any benefit to me.I lasted 2 years in college and even wanting to play basketball for “Memphis State” at the time,even that couldn’t motivate me to keep up with my studies.I have a lazy mind but I do have a good bit of common sense I think,but not being the smartest tool in the shed makes it hard for me to relate and SAY what I mean….if that makes any sense.
@NightCometh - All righteousness is filthy rags
OH GOOD LORD that sanctimonious nonsensical bogus hyperbole is what turns so many people away from your people.
People are nice to people because they have good hearts, most people are nice people by their very nature, religious views having nothing to do with it, nothing, not in a good way anyway!
aside from you being a righteous bitch to this blogger, there is no righteousness involved in this entire blog, that’s evangelical lingo which is NOT the language of this or any other country,
the only righteousness is your self serving self centered holier then everybody else self righteousness.
that kind of talk of yours is so appalling. talk about OUT OF CONTEXT quoting christian biblical passages on the blog of an atheist is taking your precious book out of context, explain THAT to your almighty
@Pickwick12 This blogger spelled out her contention quite clearly.
Theists charge that goodness and morality are the domain of the believer. They assert that, without their deity, it’s impossible to be “good” or to commit moral acts.
why don’t you just take her blog at face value?
she didn’t say “all theists”.
glad you’re not one of them, because the ones who do think that are among the stupidest and most wrongly pride filled and self righteous beings on the planet
@DivaJyoti - I just looked at top blogs and its at #3 how is that sensored? Top Blogs is run by a computer I think and a lot of it depends on when you submit it.I’ve seen some at #1 that have 4 comments and thought how does that happen?If I get on top blogs now I just figure I posted my entry at just the right time for the computer to grab it LOL
@Somefishytales - no top recced it’s not where it belongs on the recced page. it has as many recs as some stupid lame thing I wrote because I was bored, yet mine is up and hers isn’t! And mine was written last night, hers was written today! apparently you don’t hold the monopoly in miscommunicating today
you go-
If I get on top blogs now I just figure I posted my entry at just the right time for the computer to grab it LOL
i say-
yeah, we’ll cal this the “computer just grabbed it” algorhythm”
and you’re the guy who said it first, woot, fame!
hey, you always call me by my first name, I can’t get you to stop so fine, I’ll call you by your first name too, OK?
what is it?
@DivaJyoti - Oh,I never look at most rec’d and my name is Gene which it says on my profile but if you don’t like me calling you by your name I’ll stop.I just like calling people by their name because it seems more personal,but thats just me.I won’t call you by your name anymore.
@Somefishytales - That is very true. I’ve been on top blogs and didn’t even know it until someone mentioned it, lol. I’ve also noticed I was there, refreshed the page and poof I was gone as someone else got another comment/recommendation and pushed me off. I think it’s pretty random for the most part.
@Melissa___Dawn - I used to think it was a big deal…now not so much LOL
@Somefishytales - It’s OK. can I call you Gene Gene the Dancing Machine?
@scribelife -I like your definition.
a life filled with ‘spiritual materialism’ and ‘petitionary prayers’ – I don’t even see any of those things as spiritual at all!
@SirNickDon - “That’s what Christians allege about atheism. Not that atheists are bad people, but that atheism as a belief system does not provide a coherent logical basis for the morality that atheists live by.”
Well, that depends on the Christian, but i agree with you that her post should have addressed that argument. However, i don’t think that argument is a very good one. I would claim that…
1) Someone is only considered good if their good actions are intrinsically motivated
2) Ultimately the only intrinsic justification for any good action is “because x matters to me”. The atheist might say “being a good person matters to me”, while the Christian might say “i’m good because God wants me to be, and doing what God wants me to do matters to me”. The only difference is that the Christian has an extra step between his actions and his intrinsic value. However, neither of the intrinsic values themselves are inherently more justifiable than the other.
3) Christians aren’t moral for that reason anyway. Moral Christians are moral for the same reasons that moral atheists are. They just pretend otherwise. And if the Christian’s “basis for morality” is not actually the basis for their morality at all, then they can’t use it as the basis for this argument.
That’s how i’d respond to your argument.
@DivaJyoti - If you want,but have you ever seen a 6’8″ skinny guy try to dance?It’s pretty histerical.And NOOOOO,I will not post a video so don’t EVEN go there.
@Somefishytales - do you know where I got that from?
@Somefishytales - vid eee oh! vid eee oh! vid eee oh!
@DivaJyoti - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACpNVD5GMUw this? AAHahahahaha
@DivaJyoti - I’m going to do a vlog soon but not a dancing one.It WILL be funny tho.
@Somefishytales - The Gong Show.
made the world a better place for the short time it was around.
@Somefishytales - OK I’m gonna give you a grade on “funnyness”
@DivaJyoti - That was a pretty hilarious show.
@DivaJyoti - I’ve done a recording of the skit and posted it years ago on here and there are two different videos of me doing the skit in full dress up.One I was about 27 but the video isn’t very good and I can’t get it to a format that Youtube allows,the other one the guy doing the video didn’t have it on a tripod and was laughing so hard the video is shaky
I’ll do it with my webcam soon hopefully if I get a chance
@Somefishytales - ok I’ll catch it a little later. right now O’Reilly is busy making me want to projectile vomit on my lap top
@DivaJyoti - Oh,I don’t have any of it posted on this xanga or anywhere else now.I’m not even sure if I still have the recording anymore.The videos are on VHS and like I said,poor quality so I won’t even try to get them formated to put on here.I’ll just use my webcam someday to do it.I need to rehearse it some too ROFL!!!
I actually get tired of listening to O’reilly.I like him ok but he gets a little too riled up about silly stuff sometimes….well he used too,I haven’t heard him in a while so I don’t really know.I don’t even listen to Rush much anymore…cuz I have a Nephew that produces the Eric Hasseltine Radio show for ESPN here in Memphis and he actually is kind of a co-host.Eric started talking about Bash’s sister being HOT(my sister) and was embarrassing him on the radio and later that night I posted on Hasseltines FB wall and told him to watch what he says about my sister and that I was *_* watching him.My son in law called me the next day and asked if I was listening to the show and I said no I was home working on the computer.He said I missed it,they were talking about my comment on his Facebook and Eric said,I’m not scared of your Uncle and my nephew said dude,he’s a LOT taller than me even,he’d step on you LOL.He is on the same time as Rush so when I’m in the car working I listen to the sports show instead of Rush LOL
if a person wants to speak of christianity in a FACTUAL way, then they need to keep their FACTS in context. falling back on semantics is a loser’s game, one i expect diva jyoti and all her followers to play. “Theists charge that goodness and morality are the domain of the believer.” that statement is a lie which is juvenile in its attempt to encompass ALL theists. the rest of the sentence is simply out of biblical context therefore open to correction. since i have corrected it in my previous comment, there is no need to go further. of course the site owner is allowed to say whatever she likes but i took this as a serious post and responded accordingly. since i can see that it is only a self-serving attempt to spread misinformation about christians, then i will gladly end it here.
@Somefishytales - I agree with @DivaJyoti - vid eee oh! vid eee oh! vid eee oh!
@DivaJyoti - eww….I can’t sit and watch bill-o the clown. Just watching clips of O’really tends to make me want to hurl.
dang, mrs 67..now 68 comments! lol. diva told me i was mentioned here. uh oh! lol
@Kristenmomof3 - o’reily is o’revolting! despicable man
@Somefishytales - hahaha. good for him! if anybody gives your family trouble, STEP ON THEM! HAHAHAHHAHA. end of harrassment. lol. hey, i sure wish i had heard that. would have been a laugh and a half.
@DivaJyoti - projectile vomit. yep. he’s a snake.
@Somefishytales God bless you. Grampy, i’m not the sharpest tool in the shed either. but that’s why i respect you so much – you know who you are, you are humble, but also very wise, and as good as gold. i dont put much stock in booksmarted-ness or degrees. those are gifts, though to hear some in my family talk, you’d think they thought they deserved a medal for such. some of the smartest people are the most proud, arrogant, miserable, as well as the most unkind and selfish. (not all — please random folks, don’t send me angry messages. lol).
i am scatterbrained and can’t retain or recall much of what i’ve ever learned, but after i became saved i became determined as all get out and faithful to do everything i felt God wanted me to do — and that meant working my tail off relentlessly with nary a social life to speak of, putting myself through college and graduate school, volunteering, learning languages– just to show all that God can do through a dumbass ditzy blonde single mother such as myself. ;D
@YouToMe - yes, he is