May 31, 2011
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High School Student Stands Up Against Prayer at Public School and Is Ostracized, Demeaned and Threat
http://www.alternet.org/belief/151086/high_school_student_stands_up_against_prayer_at_public_school_and_is_ostracized%2C_demeaned_and_threatened/
Damon Fowler, an atheist student at Bastrop High School in Louisiana, was about to graduate. His public school was planning to have a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony: as they traditionally did, as so many public schools around the country do every year. But Fowler — knowing that government-sponsored prayer in the public schools is unconstitutional and legally forbidden — contacted the school superintendent to let him know that he opposed the prayer, and would be contacting the ACLU if it happened. The school — at first, anyway — agreed, and canceled the prayer.Then Fowler’s name, and his role in this incident, was leaked. As a direct result:
1) Fowler has been hounded, pilloried, and ostracized by his community.
2) One of Fowler’s teachers has publicly demeaned him.
3) Fowler has been physically threatened. Students have threatened to “jump him” at graduation practice, and he has received multiple threats of bodily harm, and even death threats.
4) Fowler’s parents have cut off his financial support, kicked him out of the house, and thrown his belongings onto the front porch.
Oh, and by the way? They went ahead and had the graduation prayer anyway.
So here’s a little more detail about what exactly happened with Damon Fowler.
1) Fowler has been hounded, pilloried, and ostracized by his community. He’s become the center of what he terms a “shitstorm”: he has been harassed, vilified, targeted with insults and name-calling and hateful remarks. He’s been told t he’s the Devil. He’s been told, “Go cry to your mommy… oh, wait. You can’t.” (A reference to him being disowned by his parents.) He’s been told that he’s only doing this to get attention. A student’s public prayer at a pre-graduation “Class Night” event was turned into an opportunity for the school and community to gang up on Fowler and publicly close ranks against him — teachers as well as students. (Here’s video). And people seen defending him have been targeted as well.
As just a taste, here are a few comments on the Bastrop Enterprise news story about the controversy: “I personally see him as a coward.” “I hope they [Christians] put enough pressure on this kid to convert him and save his soul from the fire of hell.” “The kid was likely a recluse and apathetic about most everything until now.” “If he don’t want prayer at graduation he can stay at home and not come to graduation.” “Afterall, that’s what she or he wants isn’t it to be singled out! This just makes me ill.” “I hope that the little athiest is offended.” “What he is really doing is trying to shove his views down people’s throats.” “Why does this student only now decide to get engaged in what is happening at the school? Is it nothing more than our own self-destructive human nature to break down anything of which we may not approve?” “That student should just have to have his/her one man graduation ceremony all alone.” “Satan continues to prowl and is deceiving many in this world.”
2) One of Fowler’s teachers has publicly demeaned him. From the story in the Bastrop Enterprise:
Mitzi Quinn has been on the staff at BHS for almost 25 years, much of that time as a senior advisor. In the past, Quinn said there have been students who were atheist, agnostic and other non-Christian religions who “had no problems” with the prayer.
“They respected the majority of their classmates and didn’t say anything,” Quinn said. “We’ve never had this come up before. Never.”
Throughout her time working with the student, Quinn said they never expressed their personal beliefs or that they had any problems with other students’ Christian faiths.
“And what’s even more sad is this is a student who really hasn’t contributed anything to graduation or to their classmates,” Quinn said. (emphasis mine)
In other words: Because the majority of students want an unconstitutional prayer at their graduation, therefore they’re in the right. Because nobody’s ever had the courage to speak up about this before, therefore the law was not being broken, and everything was okay. (After all, it’s not like anything bad happened when Fowler spoke up…right?) And because Fowler hasn’t “contributed anything” — other than, you know, a model of risking safety and security to stand up for a principle he believed in — therefore his basic legal right to not be targeted with religious proselytization by his public school is irrelevant… and he deserves to be publicly derided by one of his teachers.
3) Fowler has been physically threatened. Students have threatened to “jump him” at graduation practice, and he has received multiple threats of bodily harm, and even death threats.
Enough said.
4) Fowler’s parents have cut off his financial support, kicked him out of the house, and thrown his belongings onto the porch.
Let’s be very, very clear about this one. At a time when their son was being bullied, threatened, publicly pilloried, and ostracized from his school and his community, his parents joined the party. Their initial response was to hold him in their house against his will, take his cell phone and cut off his contact with the outside world, and even cut him off from contact with his older brother, Jerrett. Their more recent response has been to cut off financial support, kick him out of the house, and throw his belongings onto the porch.
Fortunately, Damon isn’t entirely alone. His brother Jerrett is bringing Damon into his own home in Texas, and will help put him through college. And Damon is fortunate enough to have the backing of the atheist community, who are providing encouragement, emotional support, practical assistance, and even a scholarship fund.
There’s the ugly reality of anti-atheist bigotry and discrimination across the country — especially in high schools. According to JT Eberhard, high school specialist for the Secular Student Alliance, “In Alabama, Auburn High School is refusing to allow an SSA affiliate. In Cranston, Rhode Island, a public school is facing an ACLU suit for refusing to take down a sectarian prayer [a banner posted in the school gym]. In Texas we had a student who was told he could have a secular club if he called it a philosophy club and didn’t affiliate with the SSA. The list of similar situations is a mile long and these are only the ones I’ve become aware of in my first four and a half months on the job. The Fowler incident is much closer to being the norm than the exception.”
Damon Fowler has been embraced and welcomed by the atheist community. Atheist writers have been all over this story from the moment it broke: it’s been covered on Friendly Atheist, Pharyngula, BlagHag, the Richard Dawkins Foundation, Atheist Revolution, The Thinking Atheist, Atheist Underworld, WWJTD, Rock Beyond Belief… the list goes on. Several atheist organizations are applauding Fowler for his courage.
American Atheists said of Fowler, “This kid deserves mad props for letting his principal know on no uncertain terms that ACLU would be contacted if the prayer wasn’t canceled. Good job, Damon, you speak for the freedoms of people who are trapped in the bible-belt!” JT Eberhard, high school specialist for the Secular Student Alliance, said, “Despite the vile threats, bullying, and hatred his community has given him, we recognize Damon for what he is: a brave student speaking up for religious liberty and inclusion.” Freedom From Religion Foundation spoke about “his courage in speaking out for his and other students’ rights.”
And it’s not just the atheist thought leaders. It’s the on-the-ground community. Fowler has received an outpouring of support from atheists around the country and around the world. The “Support Damon” group on Facebook has over 10,000 members as of this writing. The Reddit post from Damon and his brother Jerrett discussing these events has been loaded with expressions of empathy and outrage. Atheist forums and blog comment threads about Fowler all over the Internet have been extensive and passionate. And many atheists have written letters to the Bastrop High School administration expressing their support for Fowler’s position and their opposition to the prayer.
Friendly Atheist blogger Hemant Mehta has established a scholarship fund for Fowler, so he can attend college despite being cut off financially by his parents — and the response has been overwhelming. As of this writing, the atheist community has donated over $15,000. Essentially filling the role that his parents have abandoned.
Human beings don’t need God to be good. Human ethics seem to be wired into our brains, through millions of years of evolution as a social species, and every human being who isn’t a sociopath has them. Some of us act on them better than others… but we all have them. Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Rastafarian, Wiccan — and atheist.
And my point is this: The next time someone tells you that atheists are selfish and amoral? Remember Damon Fowler. Remember the religious community that bullied him, harassed him, ostracized him, and drove him out.
And remember the atheist community that took him in.
Comments (82)
It makes me FURIOUS to think that people who claim to be god-loving who can behave so violently. It is utterly deplorable that people would BULLY and threaten with DEATH someone who is not a Christian. How is that a Christian thing to do? This is utterly ridiculous. And sickening.
@haloed - I totally agree with everything that you said
This is an excellent post on religious freedom. It’s a shame how people react to something unfamiliar to them.
I have him added on facebook. He’s a funny kid. I really hope those theist children that have harassed him look at the overwhelming support Damon has received and question their actions.
It is crazy, I am about as Radical a Christian as you would ever want to meet, Preach on the Streets wherever I am and exercise my freedom of Speech in every possible way to bring the Kingdom of God to people. Let me say this, these people who call themselves Christians and then treat someone like this are hypocrites and a bunch of redneck posers.
As a Christian I feel sorry this happened to him. This is not Christlike behavior. Other than that I have nothing more to add.
@haloed - Actually, that is very much the christian thing to do according to the bible. It’s disgusting.
@Saridactyl - So the bible and Jesus are two complete opposites. HIlarious. No wonder most Christians can’t tell their ass from their head.
I’m Catholic, but when it comes down to it prayer in public school is unconstitutional. I think there is nothing wrong with what Fowler did because he was just going by what the government says. Not to mention a public school is not simply full of Christian students. What about all the other people with different religious views and of course the atheists. Why do a Christian prayer instead of a Jewish or Hindu prayer? The point of a public school is to allow all kinds of diversity, but this school decided to put their Christian superiority out in the open. They are wrong. Fowler is right and doesn’t deserve that kind of treatment.
@haloed - In the old testament, it actually tells parents to kill their children if they are non-believers.
And just in case someone skims by this and tries to call bullshit:
“If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you … Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.” — Dt.13:6-10
“What he is really doing is trying to shove his views down people’s throats.”
That one always gets me. I have never understood how not endorsing a particular religion at a public event is automatically shoving “not believing in a god” down other people’s throats. By recognizing only the christian god in their prayer aren’t they shoving that view down the throats of every atheist, hindu, buddhist, muslim, and perhaps even the catholic denomination of christianity’s throat?
Religion belongs in churches, not schools – the neighborhood I grew up in had 2 schools within about a 2 mile radius, and about 7 churches within that same 2 mile radius, what are they bitching about?!?
You know what disgusts me about this? It’s not the religious people. It’s the thinking individuals who are intentionally conflating mob mentality with religion. Yes, they are forming up as a community on the basis of their shared interest but the mob mentality and following actions are not based on that same unifying principle. We see examples of this from both sides on the net all the time. The difference is that in real life the atheist population is so low that the odds of a random christian popping up amidst a primarily atheist community is minuscule and even if such a thing were to happen, most atheists that were shunned and abused as a result of their beliefs would probably be reluctant to do the same to another human being (unless of course they can be anonymous and do it online). This is what humans do when faced with values that don’t meld well with their own and the people perpetrating the psychological abuse always believe they’re in the right, and I’ll be damned if anyone is going to use stunted logic on this to blame this solely on religion when there is a simpler and more complete explanation available.
First off my religion is none right now. I am leaning toward Buddhism, so now that I have gotten that out of the way, I can express that I am taking neither side on this issue. Yes, there is supposed to be a separation of church and state, but depending on where you live in America, that isnt always the case. You can look into your own states members of leadership for the example. I live in Oklahoma and our Governor Mary Fallin throws out her religious beliefs so it can appease to the constituents. Anyway, I do feel he had the right to express his lack of faith in the manner, and it should’ve been accepted. Do I believe the school should’ve changed the tradition of advocation for the masses over the belief of one? No. Should they have made a big deal about it? No. Under the First Amendment, they should be allowed to make the prayer, and it should be respected. You do not have to participate in the prayer if you do not wish to. The school and offending parties should be held liable though for the the distressing remarks and actions made towards Mr. Fowler, as he should have not been target for his beliefs. I honestly believe the school and it’s members were in the wrong for 1. releasing the name of the person who filed the complaint, 2. Allowing such means of intimidation towards Mr. Fowler to take place, 3. Allowing the issue to be blown out of proportion and making it into an issue where people are offended and in essence defending their religion, and lastly 4. Not everyone in attendance (Im sure) was Christian, so would the school have been opposed to a prayer by a Islamic, Catholic, Buddhist, or any other form of prayer? Just something to think about.
@Diary_of_a_fatman - you say that under the first amendment they should be allowed to make the prayer. You are mistaken. People can pray at graduations and other school events all they want.
The sole issue here is whether a public school can have a prayer at a
graduation or other school event as an official, school-sponsored part
of the program. Individual prayer? Hunky dory. Off-campus prayers at
churches or private events? Knock yourself out. Government promotion of a
religious agenda? Not so much. What with the First Amendment and the
“establishment of religion” bit and all.
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to
bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father,
and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her
mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his
household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of
Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.”
(Matthew 10:34-37)
“But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them–bring them here and kill them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27)
And so on. Those heinous assholes are just practicing what they preach, and considering themselves righteous and moral for doing so.
@Diary_of_a_fatman - [The] Constitution forbids the State to exact religious
conformity from a student as the price of attending her own high school
graduation.” U.S. Supreme Court justice Anthony Kennedy (1992), Lee v.
Weisman
As interpreted by the courts, the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution requires that public
school teachers, principals, and boards be religiously neutral:
<table border=”0″ cellpadding=”0″ cellspacing=”0″ width=”100%”>
<tbody><tr><td valign=”baseline” width=”42″><td valign=”top” width=”100%”>They may not promote a particular religion as being superior to any other.
<tr><td valign=”baseline” width=”42″><td valign=”top” width=”100%”>They may not promote religion in general as superior to a secular approach to life.
<tr><td valign=”baseline” width=”42″><td valign=”top” width=”100%”>They may not promote secularism in general as superior to a religious approach to life.
<tr><td valign=”baseline” width=”42″><td valign=”top” width=”100%”>They may not be antagonistic to religion in general or a particular religious belief in
particular.
<tr><td valign=”baseline” width=”42″><td valign=”top” width=”100%”>They may not be antagonistic to secularism.
<tr><td valign=”baseline” width=”42″><td valign=”top” width=”100%”>They must neither advance nor inhibit religion.
1992: USA: Supreme Court ruling: In the case of Lee v.
Weisman [U.S., 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)], the U.S. Supreme Court ruled
that employees of a public school district may not induce, endorse,
assist, nor promote prayer at their graduation ceremonies. This would
forbid prayers presented by a school principal, a teacher, or a
clergyperson from
the community. Judge Anthony Kennedy prepared the majority opinion. He
wrote that the “Constitution forbids the State to exact
religious conformity from a student as the price of attending her own
high school graduation.”
The school principal in this case had decided to include an invocation
and benediction during the ceremony. He chose a clergyperson from the
community to give these prayers and provided him with a copy of a National
Council of Christians and Jew‘s publication “Guidelines
for Civic Occasions.” It contains suggestions for the
delivery of non-sectarian prayers.
@Kristenmomof3 - Can you please explain to how the First Amendment is not covered here? Last time I checked, the First Amendment included the freedom of expression? Are you telling me, that they are not covered by this Amendment? If not, then I am mistaken, but I know I am not.
As for your declaration on the issue on whether a public school can have a prayer at a graduation or other school event- Here’s something you may find interesting:
“ The use of a brief opening and/or closing message, not to exceed two minutes, at high school graduation exercises shall rest within the discretion of the graduating senior class;2. The opening and/or closing message shall be given by a student volunteer, in the graduating senior class, chosen by the graduating senior class as a whole;3. If the graduating senior class chooses to use an opening and/or closing message, the content of that message shall be prepared by the student volunteer and shall not be monitored or otherwise reviewed by Duval County School Board, its officers or employees;The purpose of these guidelines is to allow students to direct their own graduation message without monitoring or review by school officials.” -ADLER v. DUVAL COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD
Nos. 98-2709, 98-2720.
I have provided the information to back my statements. Your turn.
@Kristenmomof3 -
ADLER v. DUVAL COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD
Emily ADLER, individually; on behalf of herself and all persons similarly situated, Seth Finck, individually; on behalf of himself and all persons similarly situated, et al., Plaintiffs-Appellants, v. DUVAL COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD, Duval County Public School District, Defendants-Appellees.
Emily Adler, individually; on behalf of herself and all persons similarly situated, Seth Finck, individually; on behalf of himself and all persons similarly situated, et al., Plaintiffs-Appellees, v. Susan Boles, as parent & next friend of Rebecca Boles, a minor child and on behalf of all public school students within the Duval County Public School District, Movants-Appellants.
Nos. 98-2709, 98-2720.
– May 11, 2001
-This case explains that the SCHOOL and it’s employees cannot endorse the prayer, but the Seniors can vote to have a school prayer or elect not to. The Prayer is given as a speech (which falls under the First Amendment) but cannot go longer than TWO MINUTES. Yes, it’s a loop-hole, but I have given you the case number and everything so you may check it out yourself. The SCHOOL CANNOT ENDORSE THE PRAYER, but if given by a student volunteer, he/she can deliver the Prayer.
@Kristenmomof3 - Im not saying you are wrong, but I am telling you this ruling covers what you are arguing.
@Kristenmomof3 - here is a link so you can see for yourself.
Hey, where’s Curtis? I would have expected him to chime in here by now…
@Diary_of_a_fatman - here is what the aclu had to say about this case (which the school ignored) https://www.laaclu.org/PDF_documents/Bastrop_HS_re_Graduation_prayer_052011.pdf
@TheSchizoidMan - no clue. I have to admit I am surprised as well that said person has not spoken yet lol
I have now read the article and seen the actual video of the prayer, and in accordance to both the letter and the ruling as I have listed above, the school has met all those requests. The school allowed the student to make a speech and in her speech she said a prayer on her own accord, which we know is covered under the First Amendment now, right? The school enacted a moment of silence, which patrons chose do with whatever they wished. Where is the issue now?
@Kristenmomof3 - Let it be known, I am only playing “devil’s advocate”, and I could personally care less about this case. I just thought since you were able to approach this as a debate, we could have a debate. So no hard feelings here.
@Diary_of_a_fatman - no hard feelings at all.
the problem is that everything that happened and then the school agreeing to just a moment of silence instead of the “school sponsored prayer” that they were planning to have…then the school purposely sending up the girl to lead the moment of silence (that was her job) and then letting her pray before the moment of silence…which was not what she was supposed to do. She was just supposed to lead the moment of silence. But they just let her go on and on…
to quote the friendly atheist “
You can tell from the audience reaction that this has very little to
do with a Christian sincere to “thank god” during graduation. The
response is much more of a “Fuck you, atheists.”
Graduating senior Laci Mattice opened her statement with, “I have something to say. I respect the beliefs of other people, but…”
We can stop right there. The word “but” tells you everything you
need to know. I’ll paraphrase the rest of it: “I respect other people’s
beliefs, but screw you if you’re not Christian. It’s prayin’ time!””
If it’s a student-led prayer, he has no legal grounds. What the SCOTUS struck down was administrator-led prayer (and I fully agree that administrator-led prayer should be a big no-no). From what I remember of my high school graduation, invocation and benediction were student-led prayers. As such, that’s just student(s) exercising their freedom of religion. It was in no way being forced on any of the students by the administration (an action which he would have had every right to throw a fit over). I don’t see what would have been so hard to just not participate in the prayer. During my over a decade as an atheist I was never offended by prayer at family functions or gatherings or anything. I simply didn’t participate and remained quiet. Didn’t hurt me any, and it wouldn’t have hurt him any either.
If he was going to get that bent out of shape over a prayer anyway, the solution would have been simple: don’t go to commencement. I didn’t go to my college graduation for that reason (I went to a Christian college and was a very angry atheist at the time). I still wound up with the degree, and I still bought a robe and all the decorations that go along with it, I just didn’t attend the ceremony. Not going to graduation doesn’t mean you don’t get your diploma.
That said, that kind of backlash is simply deplorable. The really sad thing is it happens in the US every day. It’s a large part of the reason I left and subsequently renounced my American citizenship. I really despise American Christianity, if I were to be 100% honest. Whatever happened to live and let live? Ugh….
@Kristenmomof3 - I agree with you 100%, BUT once again that is where the First Amendment comes into play. She has that opportunity to express herself, as Mr. Fowler has the opportunity to disagree with her. As we saw, the student did it on her own accord, and by doing that the school is not the one responsible for sponsoring the prayer. Yes, the crowd reacted in a manner where everyone understood what happened, but in my opinion, no laws were broken.
@StatelessPilot@revelife - I agree with 98% of what you said, minus the renouncing my American citizenship. Very well put. Glad an Atheist can add their two-cents in.
@Diary_of_a_fatman - Stateless Pilot is not an atheist. Just so you know
@Kristenmomof3 - OH? Well, I was reading what he wrote, and only went by what he wrote. I am not an atheist either, but I follow no particular religion yet.
@Diary_of_a_fatman - Well, LOL, yes, that was an extreme measure, I’ll admit (referring to the renunciation of my citizenship). However, I’m a Liberal Christian these days (well, probably more moderate, but I’ve been accused of being Liberal because I don’t believe in legislating Christianity, LOL).
@Diary_of_a_fatman - he at one point was an atheist. He is no longer. He is a Christian (at least I believe that is the word he prefers)
I am an atheist
@StatelessPilot@revelife - question what is the difference between your beliefs and those of someone like Jmallory who is into Christian Anarchy?
@Kristenmomof3 - That’s a fair question, I think. I guess the thing is I’m not opposed to local governing bodies. To be honest, I believe they are necessary to maintain order in the world, and that certain laws are implemented for the good of the people. It provides a framework to maintain order, if you will.
That said, I refuse to pledge my allegiance to any country or governing body. I’ll follow their laws but I won’t offer them my loyalty. Further, my problems with America started long before I renounced my American citizenship (I’d say sometime in high school). For years I turned my back to the flag during the playing of the anthem/recital of the pledge in opposition to everything the American government stood for (tyranny, imperialism, etc.). I guess my problem has more to do with a specific state than the notion of governing bodies in general.
@StatelessPilot@revelife - ahhh, Thanks for answering the question.
@Kristenmomof3 - Ha! I figured that’s the side you chose when you quoted the ACLU as a source, which I have no problem with. Somethings they have protested I can agree with, while others not so much.
@Diary_of_a_fatman - lol……guilty as charged
@Kristenmomof3 - I know, it’s splitting hairs. Renouncing my US citizenship was more or less my way of telling the US to shove it. A socio-political statement against the system, if you will.
I guess my opinion is the unpopular one, sure, I find this foul, but I mean… I’m a firm believer in the seperation of church and state. I don’t know, I don’t dig bullying, but I’m not fond of the idea of classtime interupted to pray or something, I understand an indiviual would probably do it alone, but it’s still taking away from the education and that, in my opinion, matters most.
Religion does nothing but cause contreversey anyway, as exhibited in this sitatuation…
I read things like this and all I can think is how oppressed Christians are… oh, wait.
Man, this is awful.
nothing like Christian love is there. these people just demonstrated again why the founding fathers knew to, and the rest of us need to, keep religious belief separate from state.
Religions being practiced and upheld in schools and government (politics), in any form, is wrong. Religion has nothing to do with education or running a country properly (my opinion is the less religion a politician has the better they can govern).
The people who vilified Fowler, including his parents, exhibit the very attitude that shows to a great degree why I hold my opinion. These people, and people like them, that I’ve met throughout my life are a good portion of the reason I find religion and the religous useless and dangerous.
They are the best advertisement for being secular; deist, atheist, agnostic, pantheist, etc.
This is horrifying. Things like this are enough to make me ashamed for being Christian. That is, of course, until I remember that God Himself is good, and those that follow him are the ones that are making religion corrupt. I’m glad that he stood up for his beliefs, but I’m horrified by the reaction he got from others. It’s sickening.
@Saridactyl - Yeah, but that is the OT. Most christians like myself go by the NT with Jesus. And also, that was a different culture back there. Still, Jesus did preach love and tolerance towards all. We’re really supposed to go by the NT, not to the OT anymore.
@haloed - It is sickening.
OP:
Hell, if I was him, I’d probably contact the police about these physical and bodily threats. Family or friends or just strangers. No one should feel persecuted for their beliefs or lack of them. Everyone should be granted the right. Glad, I don’t live in those states and live in Texas instead. It’s a shame his parents didn’t act like real parents and support him through this even though they don’t like his decision. Real parents don’t do that. It’s really fucking disgusting and I’m christian. I find these acts very deplorable and disgusting. Thank you for sharing this story. I shall spread it around and let it be known. Though I’m glad others are supporting him. He has every right to complain, and every right should be given to him. I hate the double standards and people thinking that this nation is christian which it is not. Also, there is a reason why the founding fathers put separation of church and state. They knew this shit would happen.
@Saridactyl - Actually that’s in reference to the fact that he is a jealous god and does not want others to be worshiped as him, says minimal about atheists. And most “Christians” don’t follow the Old Testament anymore, considering there’s a new one out. But there are other examples of this in the New Testament.
@HappierHeathen - Hey, I recognize that second quote from a very funny video of a muslim man trying to point out obvious moral flaws in the bible in juxtoposition to the quran. That line isn’t an instruction though, it’s part of a parable that Jesus was telling. It’s called the parable of the ten minas and what you quoted is the last line in it.
@StatelessPilot@revelife - Well the thing is that it’s fine if he’s an atheist going to a Christian school….so he can decide not to go but a public school? That`s a no no because it`s supposed to have multiple(and usually does) religions NOT just Christianity. When it is a school not bound by a certain religion(like a specific Jewish/Christian/Catholic etc school) then people should put aside prayer and understand that not everyone has the same beliefs in the school they are attending.
Here is my response. Some of you may disagree with this response, and that’s just fine, but personally, I’d like to see all sides of this story….
With all due respect to you, Saridactyl, you just have no clue what that verse is all about…
@JandJinJapan - Would you like to explain it to me since I don’t understand? Does it not say to stone them to death if they don’t change their mind?
Saridactyl - Again, I meant no disrespect in my response to you, and my sincerest of apologies if it came off that way. Yes, the Bible does say those things that you mentioned. Yes, they were part of the laws that governed Ancient Israel. Yes, they were types of execution that God wanted done, not just for religious purity, but also for the Israelites’ National Security. But no, it isn’t something we are called, as believers, to do in this day and age. Since Christ has come and paid the price, we are called not to carry out the law as the Israedlites were; we are called to love others. I know a lot of Christians have pretty much discarded the OT, but what should be done instead is view it as what God thinks of sin. He hates sin so much he wants it destroyed. In fact, that is exactly why the Great Flood happened. It wasn’t because he hated people; it was because he hates sin. That’s also why Jesus Christ came. He came to eradicate sin in people’s lives. That is why he died on the cross. His cal now is not for us to slay sinners and make war agaisnt unbelievers, but to love them, pray for them, and be friends with them. In the end, it is Jesus Christ who will judge sin.
Poor kid!
Intolerance is such a sad, sad reality.
This kind of thing is really vile.
@Saridactyl - That was a law of the Old Testament, before Jesus came and did away with the old law.
Was he really pilloried? Because that would be something to see.
@SirNickDon - merriam-webster - pilloried: to expose to public contempt, ridicule, or scorn
@dlm0908 - thanks. It was fun and interesting. If everyone would debate so respectfully with each other all the time it would be wonderful. I really enjoyed the discussion
@Kristenmomof3 - Well, sure. I suppose what I meant was, “Was he literally pilloried? Because that would be something to see.”
@StatelessPilot@revelife - I agree with what you said. A student saying a prayer is quite different from the school superintendent leading a prayer.
What I do find quite terrible was his community’s response to him. Treating him that way was completely wrong. I feel for him.
Well how very Christian of them. This is just sad.
Anyone calling themselves Christians should know better. Hate is not part of the doctrine. A truly obedient Christan accommodates a non-believer so far as (s)he feels (s)he him/herself is not sinning. They don’t assume to be perfect either.
The response of the community is absolutely atrocious. Not Christian behavior at all. It’s this kind of behavior that drives people away from Christianity, because the people they see calling themselves Christian act horribly, against their professed beliefs. Much of this reaction seems to be based on pure stupidity. “Is it nothing more than our own self-destructive human nature to break down anything of which we may not approve?” Completely hypocritical statement, seeing as how that’s exactly what they are doing. Jesus often spoke against the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders for basically doing the same thing.
Another point though: “Human beings don’t need God to be good. Human ethics seem to be wired into our brains, through millions of years of evolution as a social species, and every human being who isn’t a sociopath has them. Some of us act on them better than others… but we all have them. Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Rastafarian, Wiccan — and atheist.” Consider this: It is the Christian belief that our morals come from God. Not the Bible, not Christianity, but from God himself. God who made all of us. That morality applies no matter our beliefs. As you say, we all have the same morals, even Christians and Atheists. Many Christians do not understand that because Atheists were also made by God, they have the same morals we do, the simply don’t believe in God. (Note, I’m not arguing that Christianity is true, I am arguing that if it is, it’s laws apply to all of us whether we believe or not.) Just to clear that up for any fellow Christians who say that Atheists are immoral.
Pilloried, really? Did someone make one in woodshop?
So Christians who believe in prayer in school even though it is illegal have the right to break the law. I am more concerned with this young man than I am the idiot adults who psychological sent him to a mental and emotional hell.
Good post and TY for making us aware of this.
What do you expect of the Bible Belt?
Separation of church and state has never been truer. Imagine what it would be like if the state sponsored Christianity. No one would be able to speak out against it, or much of anything else. We see clearly the mentality of those who would most readily back state sponsored Christianity in this article. Is there any doubt that if they integrate their religion into our country what it would be like. Ask Damon Fowler.
Okay, while I disagree with him, I disagree even more with the actions that have been taken against him. What CHRISTIAN treats another person this way and still calls themselves Christians? Not all Christians are like this. But unfortunately a lot are. I couldn’t even get all the way through the post because it was beginning to anger me.
This reminds me so much of one of my favorite quotes of all time: “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” I’m a Jew, and I can get behind the majority of Christ’s messages, even if I don’t believe in him as my messiah. He preached love, understanding, generosity, and forgiveness. And he did not just preach it – he practiced it. Clearly, the “Christians” in his town are not following the teachings of Christ. There is a difference between making sure graduation is held in accordance with the Constitution and forcing your beliefs down someone’s throat, and it sickens me that people exist who do not see this difference. The USA is not a Christian nation, it is a secular nation that has many Christians in it. But it also has Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Pastafarians, agnostics, athiests, Wiccans, and more. People need to learn this and accept it.
This was an excellent post.
This fucking infuriates me. If the law says god and school should be separate, it should fucking be separate. This is why I’ve come to dislike most religious people. I mean honestly, even if you say you are a good christian you’d probably react the same. I know my good christian family would. And yes, I will forever group all Christians together because they’ve chosen that title and group me with bad hearted atheists too. You are all the same. You sick, twisted, evil group of people.
Fuck. No wonder he’s gotten so much money in that scholarship fund. I’d donate if I had the money just to spite them. I hope his christian “friends” there all suffer and drop out of school. They don’t deserve any form of success in life.
@Saridactyl - My dear, that’s Old Testament law, which was negated by Christ’s death in the New Testament. Old Testament is not meant to be instruction so much as history; New Testament (emphasis on Jesus’s life and philosophy) is more instructive/guiding.
I am a strong Christian and I think this boy should not have been treated this way! The Bible says (New Testament law) to respect the authorities, so specifically ignoring U.S. law is going against what Christ guides Christians to do. [[I'm pointing this out to the misled Christian audience, not necessarily the athiest/agnostic population; I don't believe in judging or pushing non-Christians against Christian standards.]]
Goodness Majority rules in most things so why should they have to break a tradition for one or two student that would be unfair to all the rest there is nothing that says he has to pray with the rest of the students that do the students that want prayer have rights too…. I am not saying all mean things that happened to him is right that is totally wrong…but I really don’t think he has the right to take away from the other students that want all the traditional happenings in their graduation
oh the religious.. Do they hear themselves? They sound ridiculous.
I believe ‘religiousness’ should be punishable by law. Religion promotes ignorance. and 90% of the time, hate.
I’m sure if a public school decided to do a Muslim prayer, Christians would cause a major fuss over it.
@Melissa___Dawn - this is EXACTLY what i was going to say. that one sentence infuriates me more than anything. oh, he’s shoving HIS views down YOUR throat because he doesn’t want a PRAYER when he’s not religious? fuck off, honestly.
@SisterMae - Why? Because it’s unconstitutional. Maybe we should just throw the constitution out altogether, take a few votes and if the majority votes back in slavery, or takes away the right for women to vote we’ll just be fine with it. The constitution was designed to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. This is a fine example of it being completely necessary, where christians are the overwhleming majority and they think they have the right to bully a minority just because they have more people on their side. It does not by any means negate his constitutional rights just because he’s outnumbered.
@Melissa___Dawn - In my family one of my children is ot a believer… When we pray he is polite even holds hands with us as we pray. When he was at his graduation he never spoke about how since he did not believe it should not be spoken he politely listened and allowed his believing friends to pray for him. I think he handles all of us well and in return we respect and love him as much as he loves and respects us. He does not think it is a non believers place to take prayer away from tradition in the school events or at any other event. We talked about this just the other day when I was working on a paper along with several of his friends what stood out to me most was a statement one of his friends made…”we as a people should respect each others beliefs and traditions and if it means that I stand by quietly while they pray or go to a celebration that I don’t totally agree with to make my wifes family happy I will. I politely listen to their witness and thank them for their concern.”
@SisterMae - And how quiet are you going to be if suddenly islam is the majority population in America and no christian prayers are said in public schools any longer because the majority of the student body wants to hear a muslim prayer? Seriously, really think about that. You think the minorities should “be polite” and just shut up and put up with it, but that is only because right now you are the majority. If the tables were turned you’d be arguing the other side. As for the quote of one of your son’s friends, it sounds to me like he’s talking about what he is willing to do at a family/friend gathering, not quite the same thing as a public school event of strangers and minorities. And where is your respect for the minorities? You are basically saying that all other religions/non religious people should “respect your belief” by allowing YOUR prayers in the public domain, but I don’t see equal time being given to minority religions – and where is the respect to the atheist who goes to a public school to get an education, not a religious belief?
To be honest, when I read your response about being “polite” it reminded me of a quote. I can’t remember the exact quote or even where I heard it, but it was something along the lines “and then you want us to be good little jews and go quietly to the ovens.”
The case itself, the reaction, and the comments here are all fascinating.